Strip Clubs / Reality, Separating The Two

[Cat_Ballou]

Ww, what was the club's response? The right thing to do, in my opinion, would be for the club to back her up by informing the client that employees are not allowed to date members. It's an official policy (to help out a woman in your friend's position) that can be ignored (if/when desirable), but allows everyone to save face and gives her Official Support...

I haven't joined a gym in a long time, but I do remember a high ogling factor that could be really off-putting -- I can only imagine working in that environment...

 

[Harlot]

That's why I always joined gyms where the guys were predominantly gay. It worked out perfectly because Chelsea was so convenient for me anyway. Those guys didn't even give me a second glance.

 

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by Harlot
That's why I always joined gyms where the guys were predominantly gay.

And it is much easier to find someone to go shopping with after you workout.

 

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou

1 - Ww, what was the club's response?

2 - The right thing to do, in my opinion, would be for the club to back her up by informing the client that employees are not allowed to date members. It's an official policy (to help out a woman in your friend's position) that can be ignored (if/when desirable), but allows everyone to save face and gives her Official Support...

1 - The owner leaned close and asked her to go out and have a drink with him to discuss the situation...!

1a - No, not really. I just made that up. I am not sure of the details...heard the story second hand, but I think they just told her something lame and useless, like "Boys will be boys. It is part of the job, just be polite and ignore it." I have no idea what they told the guy who was bothering her when he complained.

2 - Your suggestion is a clever and excellent one, solves the problem and at the same time minimizes everyone's embarassment and discomfort. Even the guy can protect his ego by imagining that she would go out with him if she were not afraid of losing her job. A lot of bosses are not that clever or sympathetic though, unfortunately.

-Ww

 

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
1 - The owner leaned close and asked her to go out and have a drink with him to discuss the situation...!

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me in the least...

I think they just told her something lame and useless, like "Boys will be boys. It is part of the job, just be polite and ignore it." I have no idea what they told the guy who was bothering her when he complained.

2 - Your suggestion is a clever and excellent one, solves the problem and at the same time minimizes everyone's embarassment and discomfort. Even the guy can protect his ego by imagining that she would go out with him if she were not afraid of losing her job. A lot of bosses are not that clever or sympathetic though, unfortunately.

-Ww

Maybe someone should approach them with such an idea from a cold-blooded legal (and financial) perspective: if an employee amasses enough evidence of management telling her to accept such treatment as "part of the job," that could be considered grounds for litigation on the basis of "creating or fostering a hostile work environment."

Does the legal crowd want to weigh in?

 

[jseah]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
Actually, it wouldn't surprise me in the least...

Maybe someone should approach them with such an idea from a cold-blooded legal (and financial) perspective: if an employee amasses enough evidence of management telling her to accept such treatment as "part of the job," that could be considered grounds for litigation on the basis of "creating or fostering a hostile work environment."

Does the legal crowd want to weigh in?

I may not be a lawyer.......

but my guess is that if the boss did nothing to alleviate the "hostile environment", even though he/she knew that it was happening, it could be legal grounds for a sexual harassment suit (no difference between allowing a customer to sexually harass and allowing an employee to sexually harass).

 

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
Actually, it wouldn't surprise me in the least...

Maybe someone should approach them with such an idea from a cold-blooded legal (and financial) perspective: if an employee amasses enough evidence of management telling her to accept such treatment as "part of the job," that could be considered grounds for litigation on the basis of "creating or fostering a hostile work environment."

How many people have you met that have ever won a lawsuit?

(Any side over any issue.)

(In fact not just as a matter of law.)

 

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
if an employee amasses enough evidence of management telling her to accept such treatment as "part of the job," that could be considered grounds for litigation on the basis of "creating or fostering a hostile work environment."

A good point, and I will perhaps mention the idea to my friend (hmmm...a self-outing risk if he happens to be a UG reader), and in any case it is worth discussing here if anyone knows anything about such legal options. However, before anyone gets too steamed on her behalf, do keep in mind that what you have heard is my version of her dad's version of her version of the story...so the facts may not be exactly right and the whole scenario may have been exaggerated and/or somehow distorted in the retellings.

-Ww

 

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
Actually, it wouldn't surprise me in the least...

That is why it is funny or sad or both.

-Ww

 

[justlooking]

Hey right. Maybe all the barmaids at places like the Village Idiot and Red Rock West can get together and do a class action.

 

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
Hey right. Maybe all the barmaids at places like the Village Idiot and Red Rock West can get together and do a class action.

jl, do try to keep in mind that we do not all know or patronize the same establishments that you do, in whatever city you said you live in...what was it again?

I infer that the barmaids in these places are subject to routine unwelcome flirting from the customers?

-Ww

 

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by justlooking
Hey right. Maybe all the barmaids at places like the Village Idiot and Red Rock West can get together and do a class action.

I could be wrong, but I don't think that having to wait on drunken, sexually agressive, courtesy-challenged yahoos counts as sexual harassment if it also qualifies as the job description...

 

[justlooking]

PLEASE do not infer that I patronize those places.

 

[justlooking]

I don't know what the law is, but I get creeped out by overexpansion of "sexual harassment" law.

There's this high-end eyeglasses place near my office. They hire these extremely attractive women to staff it. They lean over the counter at you in revealing outfits. Now there's nothing wrong with using sex to further your business, but you can't then be hypocritical about the customers' responses.

I don't see the insides of too many gyms, but most of the people (of either sex) I see sitting at the entrance desks when I walk by them are very attractive. I doubt it's a coincidence. Maybe they don't lean over the counter at you the way the eyeglass shopgirls do, but it does seem apparent that they're hired for their looks. Some will see this as some kind of "blame the victim"/"she was asking for it" thing, but I think that if you're getting favorable treatment because of your sexual desirability, you can't really complain about what are really some fairly mild and altogether expectable consequences.

(Maybe I'd feel differently if I weren't such a toad.)

 

[jseah]

Originally posted by buddyyy
How many people have you met that have ever won a lawsuit?

(Any side over any issue.)

(In fact not just as a matter of law.)

well, I haven't met her in person....but there was that one secretary from this prestigious law firm (worked from their office in Palo Alto) that filed a sexual harassment lawsuit against the firm because a partner in that office would continually rub up against her, rub her back, make comments about how she should wear shorter skirts and more revealing tops, etc. and she complained, but the firm looked the other way because the partner brought in lots of high-profile, high-fee clients. She was awarded $35 million by the court.

n.b. - I could be wrong, but I think the law firm was Baker McKenzie.

 

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by buddyyy
How many people have you met that have ever won a lawsuit?

(Any side over any issue.)

(In fact not just as a matter of law.)

I have twice. But the first one doesn't count because the $%^&ing attorney's fees were more than my settlement.

 

[jseah]

Originally posted by justlooking
There's this high-end eyeglasses place near my office. They hire these extremely attractive women to staff it. They lean over the counter at you in revealing outfits. Now there's nothing wrong with using sex to further your business, but you can't then be hypocritical about the customers' responses.

Not to mention this....

with public accounting firms, the female accountants they hire to work on audits are typically much better looking than the female accountants they hire to work on taxes (since the auditors are the ones who go out and work at the client offices, while the tax folks work back in the accounting firm's offices).

 

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
I don't know what the law is, but I get creeped out by overexpansion of "sexual harassment" law.

there's nothing wrong with using sex to further your business, but you can't then be hypocritical about the customers' responses.

you can't really complain about what are really some fairly mild and altogether expectable consequences.

I do not entirely disagree with you about said "overexpansion"; it can be ludicrous in some cases. However, I also do not think the situation I described is all that minor or mild. The guy did not just leer a bit at my friend's daughter's body or ask her out a couple of times; he made a constant pest out of himself and simply would not accept any polite hints that she was not interested (at least according to the account I heard). I can see how this could be pretty unpleasant and upsetting to a young woman, given that her work required her to deal with him as often as he chose to visit the club. I also do not cross the thresholds of gyms very often and am not all that clear on what she does for the customers, but she may well be required to work with him in close quarters or even to touch him for some reason (maybe to adjust his posture on the exercise equipment...I really dunno, just imagining it). Anyway, whatever we may think of it, the situation does bother her quite a lot; as per my first post, she might even quit the job to avoid such hassles.

-Ww

 

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by justlooking
I don't know what the law is, but I get creeped out by overexpansion of "sexual harassment" law.

There's this high-end eyeglasses place near my office. They hire these extremely attractive women to staff it. They lean over the counter at you in revealing outfits. Now there's nothing wrong with using sex to further your business, but you can't then be hypocritical about the customers' responses.

I don't see the insides of too many gyms, but most of the people (of either sex) I see sitting at the entrance desks when I walk by them are very attractive. I doubt it's a coincidence. Maybe they don't lean over the counter at you the way the eyeglass shopgirls do, but it does seem apparent that they're hired for their looks. Some will see this as some kind of "blame the victim"/"she was asking for it" thing, but I think that if you're getting favorable treatment because of your sexual desirability, you can't really complain about what are really some fairly mild and altogether expectable consequences.

(Maybe I'd feel differently if I weren't such a toad.)

Of course, sex sells, and No, it's not a coincidence that gyms usually have very attractive staffs. The thing is, the gym is selling the notion that you can enhance your own attractiveness through fitness, whereas I don't think the eyeglass outfit is trying to say that better vision makes you sexier; they've just made getting glasses a more pleasant experience for their male and lesbian customers. The gym's employees are supposed to be representative of what the gym can do for the member, and perform whatever function they were hired for: towel boy, personal trainer, etc. In the scenario described, the woman was repeatedly asked out by a member who refused to accept No for an answer and then complained about her to the management, as though she had failed in some professional capacity by not catering to him off-site! How is this not harassment? She works in a gym, not a whorehouse; she's a trainer, not an escort; and even whores and escorts are free to pass on someone if he's that obnoxious...

 

[jseah]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
I do not entirely disagree with you about said "overexpansion"; it can be ludicrous in some cases. However, I also do not think the situation I described is all that minor or mild. The guy did not just leer a bit at my friend's daughter's body or ask her out a couple of times; he made a constant pest out of himself and simply would not accept any polite hints that she was not interested (at least according to the account I heard). I can see how this could be pretty unpleasant and upsetting to a young woman, given that her work required her to deal with him as often as he chose to visit the club. I also do not cross the thresholds of gyms very often and am not all that clear on what she does for the customers, but she may well be required to work with him in close quarters or even to touch him for some reason (maybe to adjust his posture on the exercise equipment...I really dunno, just imagining it). Anyway, whatever we may think of it, the situation does bother her quite a lot; as per my first post, she might even quit the job to avoid such hassles.

-Ww

we shouldn't infer the fact pattern since you had not said that she has already reported this to her employer, but at the very least she should bring it to their attention (since their knowledge of the situation would be a prerequisite to any legal argument for harassment).