Strip Clubs / Reality, Separating The Two

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking

1. I don't think it's a particularly good or desirable thing to befriend sex workers. I think that affirmative attempts to do that on behalf of the customer breach the boundaries upon which this whole business rests (and also betray an unadmirable neediness on the part of the customer).

2. I also think it's dangerous for customers to think in terms of befriending sex workers. It leaves them open to exploitation and emotional anguish.

3. I finally harbor no illusions that I'm friends with the strippers and prostitutes I see.

4. OTOH, I think it's silly to deny the possibly of such friendships' developing. I don't think it would be a bad thing if they did. And while everybody has their own sensitivities, I don't see why, as a rule, they would prevent any customer from continuing to buy sexual services from his friend.

1 - I think that befriending and/or being befriended by anyone is a particularly good and desirable thing in all but the most unusual and rare circumstances. I am even less worried about having too much friendship in my life than about having too much love or romance. As for the last sentence in point #1, it depends a lot on what is meant by "affirmative attempts". Clearly guys can make pests of themselves (or much worse) by trying to push a beyond-just-professional relationship on women who are simply not interested, and I think it is a mistake to go into nearly any situation with the primary purpose being a hidden agenda of making friends. However, being friendly and doing things which are pleasant, helpful or supportive that might lead to friendships is good behavior in most situations, including those involving commercial sex, imo.

2 - Befriending, much less loving (God forbid!), someone is dangerous in that it opens you up to potential exploitation and emotional anguish whether or not they are a sex worker. I will agree that the risks of such victimization and sufferring are higher than with some other classes/types of women/people, but they are also probably less than with other groups. In other words, I see this a difference of degree, not of kind, in terms of risk.

3 - OK

4 - The red part of #4 seems to directly contradict with the similarly color coded part of #1. Or am I misunderstanding something here? I agree with the last sentence in #4; I think it bothers some people but others don't have any trouble with it at all.

-Ww

 

[danger-us]

Re: Friends vs lovers

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Some of the most rewarding relationships of my life have been very close but platonic friendships with women; if I could do it over and have had them as lovers for a year or a few (which is probably all it would have lasted) rather than as long term friends, I would definitely stick with the friend option despite the fact that I find them quite attractive.

Some of my ex girlfriends are my favorite people. I wish we could still be friends as I value their friendship more than the sex. But the new boyfriends get very jealous.

 

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
The red part of #4 seems to directly contradict with the similarly color coded part of #1.

Actually, contrary to my post, there is no direct contradiction. #1 says that such friendships are not "good" while #4 says that they are not "bad", but somehow I doubt that jl meant to assert that they are exactly neutral/indifferent in this convoluted way.

-Ww

 

[justlooking]

I did, though.

 

[justlooking]

I mean, you've got some guys claiming that you've GOT to make friends with sex workers to get the most out of commercial sex, and that they're somehow superior as commercial sex consumers cuz they do.

You've got other guys saying that it can't happen, or it shouldn't happen, or it destroys the whole commercial sexual relationship if does happens.

I'm just trying to say that if it happens, it happens.*

_____________________________________________
* But be careful.

 

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Actually, contrary to my post, there is no direct contradiction. #1 says that such friendships are not "good" while #4 says that they are not "bad", but somehow I doubt that jl meant to assert that they are exactly neutral/indifferent in this convoluted way.

Originally posted by justlooking
I did, though.

You think and write like an attorney.

-Ww

 

[danger-us]

Originally posted by justlooking

I'm just trying to say that if it happens, it happens.*

_____________________________________________
* But be careful.

Go with the flow, baby

 

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
You think and write like an attorney.

There are a lot of strippers in this town who'd have a lot less spending money if I didn't.

 

[Harmony Memories]

Originally posted by justlooking
I mean, you've got some guys claiming that you've GOT to make friends with sex workers to get the most out of commercial sex, and that they're somehow superior as commercial sex consumers cuz they do.

You've got other guys saying that it can't happen, or it shouldn't happen, or it destroys the whole commercial sexual relationship if does happens.

I'm just trying to say that if it happens, it happens.*

_____________________________________________
* But be careful.

I certainly can see how some guys could be pushy, and try to force a friendship on the girls they come across in the commercial sex world. These are usually the guys you spot bringing flowers, presents, and all their paychecks to the places the ladies work.

On the other hand, I'm not saying that you can't have a friendship with a sex worker that you are still paying. I do wonder if all the parties involved, however, see this "friendship" in the same light.
But I was trying to share some personal experiences that I had in this realm, and my reaction and the reactions of the ladies that I became buddies with. I personally felt uncomfortable doing anything sexual now with these girls, and I know they felt the same (One friend was so weirded out she even asked me not to come to the Harmony on the days she worked ).
So this is an issue that boils down to each individaul's personal sensitivities

 

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by jjhunsecker
I certainly can see how some guys could be pushy, and try to force a friendship on the girls they come across in the commercial sex world.

Also very very common in the non-commercial sex world as I never seem to tire of pointing out. (I wonder what fraction of my total UG posts make basically the same sort of point.)

-Ww

 

[justlooking]

1. My experience indicates that it's more common in the commercial sex world than elsewhere.

2. I think it's also more of an issue in the commercial sex world, since other worlds aren't as dependent on "boundary" rules.

 

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
1. My experience indicates that it's more common in the commercial sex world than elsewhere.

2. I think it's also more of an issue in the commercial sex world, since other worlds aren't as dependent on "boundary" rules.

1 - That may be, but to be fair you cannot compare to the world elsewhere in general, you have to compare to that portion of the rest of the world which consists of young, beautiful and apparently unattached (I.e., who are not directly and clearly associated with a bf, SO, husband or whatever) young women. In other words, how big a problem would specific sex workers have with this sort of thing if they were single/unattached, or thought to be so, and working in a typical business office setting, say, or hanging out in a neighborhood bar. There might still be a difference, but it would be smaller, and such women would still see quite a lot of such behavior.

2 - I agree with that; it is more of an issue.

-Ww

 

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by justlooking
There are a lot of strippers in this town who'd have a lot less spending money if I didn't.

I doubt it. People that are successful in one field would have been successful in another if they had just chosen it early enough.

 

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by justlooking
I think it's also more of an issue in the commercial sex world, since other worlds aren't as dependent on "boundary" rules.

I think other worlds have much clearer boundary rules, and are very dependent on them, precisely because transgression of them causes so much trouble in the course of business as usual (not to mention all that pesky sexual harassment litigation). In sex work, transgression of such boundaries is business as usual, so how surprising is it that it all gets a bit hazy, amidst the steaming bodies?

 

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
1 - That may be, but to be fair you cannot compare to the world elsewhere in general, you have to compare to that portion of the rest of the world ...

A good illustration of this occurred to me. The 20-something unmarried daughter of a friend of mine (I have known her since she was an infant) works at one of those commercial gyms or fitness centers which are so popular these days, one of those places with all sorts of fancy exercise equipment and so forth. I am not all that clear on what she does there, but it involves teaching the customers/members to use the equipment and design personalized work-out routines and such. She is quite fit looking (goes naturally with the work I guess) and otherwise perfectly nice looking and cute, but I would not describe her as any sort of rare beauty or anything. Also, she does not dress or behave (that I have ever seen anyway) in any particularly provocative or flirty way. Nevertheless, getting hit-on inappropriately by the male customers, many of whom are married and/or far too old for her, seems to be the major hassle of her job. According to her dad, she complains about it constantly and may look for a different sort of work because she is getting so sick of it. Basically it sounds to me a lot like the sort of behavior we have been discussing re strip clubs; a fair fraction of the male customers want to make their interactions with her more personal than is welcome or appropriate. I do not have the impression that it is so much crude propositions or vulgar talk as constant invitations to go out for coffee or a meal or whatever and the offense that the guys often take when she declines.

My point, if any, is that strip clubs and the interactions that go on in them are less unique than one might think, especially given the demographics of the dancers and the customers.

-Ww

 

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by justlooking
I mean, you've got some guys claiming ... and that they're somehow superior as commercial sex consumers cuz they do.

Everyone must know that all commercial sex consumers are equal
_____________________________________________

* some are just more equal than others.



with obvious apologies to one of the great minds of the last century.

 

[Harlot]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
A good illustration of this occurred to me. The 20-something unmarried daughter of a friend of mine (I have known her since she was an infant) works at one of those commercial gyms or fitness centers which are so popular these days, one of those places with all sorts of fancy exercise equipment and so forth. I am not all that clear on what she does there, but it involves teaching the customers/members to use the equipment and design personalized work-out routines and such. She is quite fit looking (goes naturally with the work I guess) and otherwise perfectly nice looking and cute, but I would not describe her as any sort of rare beauty or anything. Also, she does not dress or behave (that I have ever seen anyway) in any particularly provocative or flirty way. Nevertheless, getting hit-on inappropriately by the male customers, many of whom are married and/or far too old for her, seems to be the major hassle of her job. According to her dad, she complains about it constantly and may look for a different sort of work because she is getting so sick of it. Basically it sounds to me a lot like the sort of behavior we have been discussing re strip clubs; a fair fraction of the male customers want to make their interactions with her more personal than is welcome or appropriate. I do not have the impression that it is so much crude propositions or vulgar talk as constant invitations to go out for coffee or a meal or whatever and the offense that the guys often take when she declines.

My point, if any, is that strip clubs and the interactions that go on in them are less unique than one might think, especially given the demographics of the dancers and the customers.

-Ww

W, I'm glad you told this story. Because I think that this is one aspect of the strip club bussiness that you're correct in saying IS NOT unique to that arena.
On the one hand, I really can't blame guys for trying to ask a lady out on a date. Hey, what's the harm in trying, right? As long as you're polite and respectful about it. The problem is that all too many guys come right out with the date proposal too early on (like right after meeting the girl before any common interests or anything have been established) and then they get really pushy about the whole thing. I seriously think that some men are total morons when it comes to picking up on the subtle hints and body language that a women uses when she's trying to politely decline. I don't mind a guy trying to start up a conversation with me at all, but if I don't wanna talk then I don't wanna talk. And I think it quickly turns from cute to annoying when they see me rifling through my purse or checking my voice mail and they continue on asking me questions about myself. I mean, is it rude to say "I'm sorry, I don't really feel like talking right now." ? Sometimes I feel like I have to be that direct or I'll never get them to leave me alone.

 

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Harlot

1 - W, I'm glad you told this story. Because I think that this is one aspect of the strip club bussiness that you're correct in saying IS NOT unique to that arena.

2 - I seriously think that some men are total morons when it comes to picking up on the subtle hints and body language that a women uses when she's trying to politely decline. ... Sometimes I feel like I have to be that direct or I'll never get them to leave me alone.

1 - I am glad you liked it and agree; thanks for saying so. (Btw, since our current president took office, I prefer to be referred to as Ww, rather than just W!)

2 - You are not the first attractive young woman I have heard complain about this dilemma. On the one hand, some guys simply will not take a subtle hint, but on the other hand they get offended if turned down directly and unambiguously. In fact my friend gave exactly such an example of one of his daughter's problems at work. One gym member asked her out at least once, usually twice, every time he came in, despite being 20 years older than her and married. When she finally got tired or making excuses and declining politely and simply told him that she was not interested in seeing him socially, the guy went and complained to her boss that she was being rude to him, a long time customer of the place! You definitely can find men being jerks, lame, pathetic, clueless etc about women without going to a strip club.

-Ww

 

[Harlot]

Yes, and it goes without saying that you can find polite, respectful, genuinely nice guys even IN a strip club. Kewl.

 

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Harlot
Yes, and it goes without saying that you can find polite, respectful, genuinely nice guys even IN a strip club.

Indeed, it almost always goes unsaid on UG! (Btw, I understand that that is not how you meant it.)

-Ww