Why don't you post on UG anymore?
- Thread starter Slinky Bender
- Start date
Well yes, it does show that I am right, but that only means that I have understood your previous descriptions of your views. You think that people should not buy or sell sex and, thus, that they should not have parties associated with doing so (even though the commerce does not take place at the parties). I recognize that your position is at least logically consistent and that there is probably little point in debating the propriety or morality or whatever of such parties when it is simply a symptom of a deeper disagreement about commercial sex in general. So, I do think that your objection (or creep out) re such parties is basically due to old fashioned or conventional or unliberated stigmatization of commercial sex, but of course that does not necessarily mean that the objection is invalid. Nevertheless, I still don't see why it isn't your objection that is retro rather than the parties themselves. Is it really just a matter of the food and dress?
Also, fwiiw, I do not think that prostitution is entirely "normal", "unproblematic" and "unexploitatitve" (neither is driving a car, for that matter); I just don't think that it is exceptionally or inherently so.
-Ww
Also, fwiiw, I do not think that prostitution is entirely "normal", "unproblematic" and "unexploitatitve" (neither is driving a car, for that matter); I just don't think that it is exceptionally or inherently so.
-Ww
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I can't speak authoritatively for anyone else, but I certainly do not see such parties as having a primary "cattle call" function; they are hardly needed for that purpose, and many of the ladies who attend would have no part of it if they felt that way about it, I am pretty sure. Imo it really, believe it or not, is quite a bit like other sorts of social events organized around some sort of business or professional or hobby activity. People who end up interacting a lot due to a shared business/profession/hobby can develop some desire to get to know each other to some extent in a more general context. It is not so different from the motivation for an office picnic or party or whatever. And as at such events, the context that defines the group and brings everyone together is always there, sometimes in the background and sometimes in the foreground, but it is not the basic motivation for the social event.
(It occurs to me that you, jl, may have a hard time seeing/believing the above for much the same reason that you found the relationship between the two main characters in Lost in Translation so completely implausible. You seem to think that there is only a single way in which a young woman and a middle aged man could possibly find each other's company to be of any interest at all.)
-Ww
(It occurs to me that you, jl, may have a hard time seeing/believing the above for much the same reason that you found the relationship between the two main characters in Lost in Translation so completely implausible. You seem to think that there is only a single way in which a young woman and a middle aged man could possibly find each other's company to be of any interest at all.)
-Ww
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So, how do "non-retro people" relate to women and sexuality? I really would like to understand what you are trying to say here, but it is blowing right past me.
My best guess is that you are saying that "non-retro people" do not regard women as purely sex objects, but this rests on your (incorrect, imo) assumption that the only interest the men have in the women at the parties is for their sexual function. That is completely wrong, as far as I understand/experience the parties. They are exactly about getting to know the women (and other men for that matter) as people and not simply and entirely as commercial providers (or consumers in the case of the men) of sexual services.
-Ww
My best guess is that you are saying that "non-retro people" do not regard women as purely sex objects, but this rests on your (incorrect, imo) assumption that the only interest the men have in the women at the parties is for their sexual function. That is completely wrong, as far as I understand/experience the parties. They are exactly about getting to know the women (and other men for that matter) as people and not simply and entirely as commercial providers (or consumers in the case of the men) of sexual services.
-Ww
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I understand that. I can see how it isn't primarily a cattle call. That makes sense. And believe it or not, I believe it's even possible that the women may attend without primary commercial intent. (Or may not, to be sure.)
OTOH, well, let's just say these are people who wouldn't be hanging out with each other if it weren't for the fact that one group was paying the other to let them fuck them. You'll probably say this is a salutory example of a shared interest expanding people's social horizons. But to me it looks like a buncha guys lying to themselves about what they're doing.
But again, as JB implicitly notes, I'm not interested in having a good time.
(Here's something that'll make JB go ballistic. [Or at least make him say he no longer has to even think about this issue.] You know who used to write about this topic, from my point of view, better than I'll ever be able to? Aristotle.)
OTOH, well, let's just say these are people who wouldn't be hanging out with each other if it weren't for the fact that one group was paying the other to let them fuck them. You'll probably say this is a salutory example of a shared interest expanding people's social horizons. But to me it looks like a buncha guys lying to themselves about what they're doing.
But again, as JB implicitly notes, I'm not interested in having a good time.
(Here's something that'll make JB go ballistic. [Or at least make him say he no longer has to even think about this issue.] You know who used to write about this topic, from my point of view, better than I'll ever be able to? Aristotle.)
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1 - OK, I think this is progress in understanding or describing what the parties are like. (Do you agree JB?)
2 - I would say that it is not different in principle from a group of people at a party at, say, a national trade convention who wouldn't be hanging out with each other were it not for the fact that they all either buy or sell plumbing supplies, or whatever, and that it is an equally valid reason for socializing.
3 - I think I understand what you are saying, that these are guys who know that they are doing something wrong but who are trying to deceive themselves more fully/effectively that it is "OK" by making it seem more normal and ordinary, that they are using the party as a rationalization crutch in effect. Some of this may well be going on...also on the provider side for that matter; they too have to deal with the feelings that they are doing wrong. But I also think that some of the partiers are actually "liberated" in that they truly do not feel that commercial sex is wrong.
-Ww
2 - I would say that it is not different in principle from a group of people at a party at, say, a national trade convention who wouldn't be hanging out with each other were it not for the fact that they all either buy or sell plumbing supplies, or whatever, and that it is an equally valid reason for socializing.
3 - I think I understand what you are saying, that these are guys who know that they are doing something wrong but who are trying to deceive themselves more fully/effectively that it is "OK" by making it seem more normal and ordinary, that they are using the party as a rationalization crutch in effect. Some of this may well be going on...also on the provider side for that matter; they too have to deal with the feelings that they are doing wrong. But I also think that some of the partiers are actually "liberated" in that they truly do not feel that commercial sex is wrong.
-Ww
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1 - Don't panic! I'm sure something or someone will intervene at the last minute and prevent any real communication.
2 - But what is the lie exactly, or more importantly, what exactly is the truth? That commercial sex is simply bad or wrong or necessarily always has bad consequences...or sometimes does...or usually does...or...?
(My view, as I suppose is obvious, is that the BIG LIE is that people are incapable of healthy sexual behavior except in the conventional, i.e. romantic, mode.)
-Ww
2 - But what is the lie exactly, or more importantly, what exactly is the truth? That commercial sex is simply bad or wrong or necessarily always has bad consequences...or sometimes does...or usually does...or...?
(My view, as I suppose is obvious, is that the BIG LIE is that people are incapable of healthy sexual behavior except in the conventional, i.e. romantic, mode.)
-Ww
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