The death of any illusions about my sanity

Wwanderer · Apr 8, 2003

A theory of theories

I thought I had said all I had to say on this topic (several time over), but here is a minor addition:

I see JC's theory as analogus to classical physics: beautiful, elegant, intuitive (once you get used to it), useful and convincing, but not actually true at a fundamental level. Frog's theory (which I have never read, btw) is perhaps well named in that it is analogus to modern/quantum physics: confusing, complex, unintuitive, often irrelevant, difficult to utilize in practise, but with the important virtue of being true (or at least more nearly so).

-Ww

Geezy Muldoon · Apr 8, 2003

At the risk of being tedious (that's never stopped any of us before), what men dislike about the CiTV theory is that it cuts their balls off by making their presumptiousness and vanity irrelevant.

You've got to have a huge set of balls to keep hobbying after you "get" CitV. Most men's balls aren't that big.

Men prefer the comforts of Frog's theory*. That theory allows men to think that women they are paying to have sex with them will have the feelings and perceptions which the men want and need them to have in order to be believable to themselves.

But that's not respectful, and it doesn't describe reality.

I've banged 3 or 4 women a day on successive days. I sorted them and handled them by type just as prostitutes sort and handle johns.

I recycled them just as the prostitute in Mrs. Chong's Debut recycles her johns.

If there are any exceptions to CitV, they are so exceedingly rare as to not be worth talking about.

Without further questions being answered, I am still not convinced by jm's story.

*Prostitutes like Frog's theory for different reasons. It keeps men capable of belief and thus malleable.

justme · Apr 8, 2003

Re: you SAID u'll answer all questions . . .

I did say any question. And I meant it.

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The influence of Catholicism on my life is more subtle than my having to marry a Catholic woman.

Perhaps more to the point, I do not believe that Jeses Christ was the son of God and died on the cross to seek forgiveness for our sins and that the path to eternal life with God lies in accepting Jesus as my savior and therefore living by his teachings.

I do think Catholicism is a rather pretty religion (or at least before Paul got ahold of it). I also like the idea of redemption through forgiveness (reconciliation) and love. Furthermore, I admire the degree of scholarly Catholic persuit. It's incredibly well developed in its theology (something most Protestants throw away... shame).

Obviously, subjection to dogma will change you, and when the dogma is a seriously weird as Catholic (transubstantiation?) then it'll probably change you in a weird way.

Hmm... although I don't believe any of the mythos, I did think long and hard before chosing my name saint (the angel Michael, I figure I need all the help I can get), I won't eat the host unless I'm reconciled, and I do pray (I am, ultimately, a deist which the more mathematical part of my brain still sjakes its head at) when I can't think of anything else to do.

I'm not really sure how else to phrase it.

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I believe MDMA is what they made after one of the organic precursors to MDA was made widely unavailable. I believe they are chemically similar. But I never really got into the science of the stuff.

Drugs aren't my hobby, although I did used to take a lot of them (not as many as you (but close), but only one of us was tempered by 'Just say No')

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My sojourn from the board was prompted by family matters. I thought you were asking if I had been involved with her while on vacation (which implied a point that you made later in your post)

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Why should it matter how I met her? I subscribe to the theory that the prostitue / john dynamic is so charged with false pretense, dishonesty, dysfunction, and mutual exploitation that it is (all but) impossible to convert that into a healthy relationship.

The dicking myself around point is one that I've wondered at before (and was what I thought you were implying with the vacation coment). I've decided, no. I can't think of a way to express my line of thinking on this subject right now. I imagine it's akin to the how do you know what love is? Or even more accurately, How do you know you aren't deluding yourself?

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If it weren't remarkable, why would so many books and movies use it as a plot device?

(Those books and movies generally go out of their way to de-emphasize the prostitution in the prostitute's life, or worse, to hold it as a the counterforce to some set of redeaming qualities).

And she was not a hooker when I was with her. She was an ex-hooker.

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I am lonely in a way that can only be felt in a metropolis, when you are surrounded by friends and family that care about and love you. Such loneliness, I think, is a hallmark of modernity and its increased individuality and isolation. The Japanese cinimatic tradition is brilliant at capturing this.

Yes, I do miss her.

justme · Apr 8, 2003

I am not afraid of my mother. I am positively terrified of hurting her. (The thought of her pain in general is enough to make me catatonic).

I am afraid of my father. But so is everyone that meets him.

howardnotstern · Apr 8, 2003

uh, yeah!

uh, hell yeah!

justme · Apr 8, 2003

frog's theory is independant of any vanity of johns. It does not claim to describe every aspect of commercial sex. It merely attempts to place commercial sex within a certain context.

That vanity you describe in johns occurs in any man who lacks the maturity to be independant, allow for his significant other to be independant, and still feel love.

I told her what I think I am most afraid of.

(I initially read your comment to JL without the '.' It's funny how much that edit would change the meaning)

justme · Apr 8, 2003

Re: yeah,

Your intial statement is trivialy true as the conditional is everywhere false.

If I am Batman than HvB is a genius.

The English I use is the English that good sense dictates I use. My knowledge of dialects far supercedes the set that I use on this board. I am as comfortable and comprehensible talking to Dr. Roger Penrose as I am talking to Clarence Brown.

She is a bright woman, and she picked up a lot of English, but I am confident that my ability to adapt to (presumably) Korean grammar patterns played a large role in our mutual comprehension.

I did teach her the words, ironic, cynical, and solipsism.

Slinky Bender · Apr 8, 2003

Isn't it funny speaking Pidgin English just because the person you're speking to does? Did you also talk with an accent? (and don't say "I always talk with an accent").

h. von bingen · Apr 8, 2003

first off, of course yr afraid of yr father, yr catholic, now

1. the prettiest. unfortunately, for us, faith won't get u there. we gotta have FAITH and WORKS (results in alotta scholarly product). here's my judeo-christian in a nutshell: judiasm -- works-- ie the law, protestantism -- faith -- luther, catholicism -- faith and works -- pick 'em. i'm in the market for a religion that requires neither faith nor works -- buddhism? but ain't really a religion, its a PHILOSOPHY. what i like about catholocism is that it's a death sentence see e.g. maughm or greene.

2. i'm too old for just say no. moreover, i've barely ever said no to anything.

3. i'm just saying, like girls who go out with bad boys. commitmentphobes have an easier time committing to the uncommittable.

4. yr right. i thought u met her during commercial sex. if not what's the beef? we all have jobs which we'd rather not have done. can anyone say arthur treacher's fish and chips?

5. welcome to adulthood. it gets worse. eventually loneliness is not inchoate angst, but rather the actual absence of yr dead friends. no matter you never saw them in yr busy busy life in the big city.

i'm sorry u miss her. u know me VERY ROMANTIC, go get her and start a life together. if it gets fucked up, no regrets.

u've been very brave.
hvb

Geezy Muldoon · Apr 8, 2003

The reason I am so adamant about all this is that I have very high standards about inter-personal relationships.

I also believe very strongly in the curative and redemptive powers of good, functioning, healthy inter-personal relationships.

As strange as this may sound coming from me, I believe in love.

justlooking · Apr 8, 2003

I thought it was justme met her as a prostitute, but she was an ex-prostitute when they were involved.

h. von bingen · Apr 8, 2003

Re: Re: yeah,

i was teasing u. i guess yr knowledge of dialectics supercedes yr sense of humor (and as u know, i am NEVER comfortable or comprehensible).

stoned seoul picnic,
hvb

justme · Apr 8, 2003

Just because I'm crazy, it don't mean I've lost my damned mind.

I think of you every time I think of her ever prostituting herself again.

Here is a probably relevant fact:

As saw her for a very long time as a customer. I never suggested to her that she should stop prostituting herself for me. I did (once) tell her that I thought that she was causing herself harm, and that that harm would only increase the longer she stayed. She continued to be a prostitute for no shorter time than she had intended when she first arrived in the United States. Moreover, I am fairly certain that when she decided to work here, she only intended to stay for six months. Finally, I am positive that she was surprised by how difficult it was to be a prostitute. I am fairly certain I have little to do with her decisions regarding prostitution.

On the other hand, when she saw it was important to me (much later, when we were living together) she did promise not to do it again. Of course, at the time I felt like she was making the type of promise that easy to make since you had already resolved yourself to do it anyway.

h. von bingen · Apr 8, 2003

dearest ladies . . .

is this a common realization? for me, it always seemed to be too difficult to even contemplate as a career option. i mean it's a lot of work, though not nearly as much, it seems, as clean stripping.

jobsearch,
hvb

justlooking · Apr 8, 2003

It's certainly more honest.

justme · Apr 8, 2003

Don't you love the way we all try to anticipate how we will be smart asses. (seriously, I think it's cool)

I didn't talk with an accent, but I did adopt misuse of English (she would substitute gerunds for past participles and would often tell me how boring I sounded).

I'm generally a follower of descriptive linguistics.

We learned and developed our language at roughly the same pace. I had the advantage of vocabulary (although some words and phrases, ka ja, ha ji ma, yo bo se yo, po go ship oy yo and others were in Korean), but I was content to let grammar develop as it would.

justlooking · Apr 8, 2003

And I'd have thought from your writings that you were more a follower of transformational-generative grammar.

Wwanderer · Apr 8, 2003

Which of course points to the comforting part of CitV theory; it protects love from commercial sex. And conversely to the troubling/uncomfortable aspect of Frog's theory (well...of my guess at what Frog's theory says).

I agree with you about what is uncomfortable about CitV and comfortable about Frog's putative views.

-Ww

Wwanderer · Apr 8, 2003

Re: Re: yeah,

I believe that Roger prefers Professor if you are going to use titles.

-Ww

PS - Who is Clarence Brown?

Slinky Bender · Apr 8, 2003

Re: Re: Piercing the void

How ironic. It's susally the girl who breaks things off when the guy's Visa expires (ok, gets overdrawn).

The death of any illusions about my sanity

Wwanderer

Kids, don't try this at home

Geezy Muldoon

Gold

justme

homo economicus

justme

homo economicus

howardnotstern

justme

homo economicus

justme

homo economicus

Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator

h. von bingen

Sharon

Geezy Muldoon

Gold

justlooking

h. von bingen

Sharon

justme

homo economicus

h. von bingen

Sharon

justlooking

justme

homo economicus

justlooking

Wwanderer

Kids, don't try this at home

Wwanderer

Kids, don't try this at home

Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator