Referrals/Screening

[johnpet]

I'll confirm some advice already given. NEVER give a provider your real name or any phone that's in your name or could be traced to you such as your work number.

First of all, such a screening is 100% useless if you are indeed LE trying to set up a provider. Secondly, although it does indeed happen it is very VERY rare that LE contacts a provider, jumps through all the hoops just to secure possibly a single arrest. It's far too costly. Stings usually involve multiple arrests to justify the use of funds.

Secondly, most of the stings I've read about are the exact opposite - LE posts the ad and arrests the John's. It's actually ME that's more concerned about whether a provider is LE!

This is why I only see new providers either on referral or where I've seen her ads posted over the course of time with reviews. Not perfect, but minimizes the chances.

For providers - it's unfortunate but true; if it's LE calling and it's a sting there is NO verification that can be done outside of asking for referrals that will beat their system. None. If you are a provider and LE is actually out to get you, it's over. Period. If you're a provider, just hope LE doesn't target you.

Anyone ever heard of Elliot Spitzer? That's the kind of stuff that can happen with ANYONE knows your real name - in his case the agency had his information. Survey says? No f****ng way!!! His entire life is now ruined.

And if I may digress...other things required are so silly it's laughable, such as leaving money in an envelope on a desk and such. There's all these provider myths about what LE can and can't do and it's all false.

I've heard it all:

If you ask a cop if he's a cop he cannot lie - he must say he's a cop or it's entrapment
If there's no direct exchange of money I can't be arrested - so leave it on the table
A cop can't actually get a HJ, BJ or have sex

First of all, the act doesn't have to be performed to make an arrest. As soon as an agreement is made as to the act the cuff go on. So money's on the table - the provider doesn't touch it - the John says "I want a BBBJ" - the provider says "ok" and that's it - cuffs hit the writs.

On and on. First of all, an undercover narc can smoke pot, snort coke - even buy and sell drugs before he makes an arrest.

If undercover LE had to follow the law they'd all be busted within the first hour of going undercover.

 

[donquixote04]

... Anyone ever heard of Elliot Spitzer? That's the kind of stuff that can happen with ANYONE knows your real name - in his case the agency had his information. Survey says? No f****ng way!!! His entire life is now ruined. ...

I assume you know that this was NOT the way Spitzer was caught. He came to the attention of authorities because he was wire transferring large amounts money from account to account and was reported under laws that require banks to report such transfers to the feds so they can monitor them to assure no money laundering is going on. Some of the money was wired to the agency's bank account, and THAT's how Spitzer AND the agency were caught.

 

[johnpet]

Well that's my entire point - he left a trace back to his name. If he could have paid the agency in cash then he'd have been golden.

Point again is this: do not ever leave a trace back to your name.

 

[SirF]

I assume you know that this was NOT the way Spitzer was caught. He came to the attention of authorities because he was wire transferring large amounts money from account to account and was reported under laws that require banks to report such transfers to the feds so they can monitor them to assure no money laundering is going on. Some of the money was wired to the agency's bank account, and THAT's how Spitzer AND the agency were caught.

I think he was even dumber than that. I thought he asked the bank teller if there was a way to circumvent the suspicious transaction filings even though as a lawyer he should have know better. Only then did the teller become really suspicious and filed the report. Chances are that a routine report would have died a slow death in the bowels of the system otherwise. I just don't understand why he wouldn't have used cash. This is just beyond me.

 

[UG Staff]

I may be remembering incorrectly, but as I remember, it was worse than that. What I remember is that he made a transaction, then went back the next day and sat down with some bank official and asked them not to report the transaction from the prior day. The official called the IRS, the IRS called the FBI, and the rest is history.

 

[fairemily]

Well that's my entire point - he left a trace back to his name. If he could have paid the agency in cash then he'd have been golden.

Point again is this: do not ever leave a trace back to your name.

The point is do not be a very high profile politician who at one time was an advocate to shutting down the very places he frequented. He was named mostly because of who he was along with the money trail. There have been big agency busts with affluent clients in thier ledgers who never had a problem, Eliot Spitzer messed with the wrong people. If you don't want to end up like him don't become a Governor with accumulated enemies and see a high end working girl. I love how some guys actually think they are on the same level of importance as the former Governor, sorry to sound mean but nobody really who cares who you are if your just an average guy unless you have committing some seriously heinous crime.

 

[maxon1000]

I am new to the board and somewhat new to the community. Happy Holidays to all and best wishes for a healthy and prosperous new year. my question- Earlier this week, I tried to set up an appointment with popular provider on the board. Unfortunately, she was not able to verify my references ( I only have a couple- they only provide massages, which is all that I am interested in, and 1 was away for the week).. I even offered to meet beforehand if it would have made her more comfortable. Any other suggestions on how to make a provider feel more comfortable? Thank you- All revved up and no place to go...

 

[wolf5958]

I am new to the board and somewhat new to the community. Happy Holidays to all and best wishes for a healthy and prosperous new year. my question- Earlier this week, I tried to set up an appointment with popular provider on the board. Unfortunately, she was not able to verify my references ( I only have a couple- they only provide massages, which is all that I am interested in, and 1 was away for the week).. I even offered to meet beforehand if it would have made her more comfortable. Any other suggestions on how to make a provider feel more comfortable? Thank you- All revved up and no place to go...

If you truely want a provider to be comfy answer all of her screening questions honestly and when asked. If you are not comfortable providing the information requested than say so and see if she will accept alternate info. Referals do work but the provider you wish to see must also be comfy with the person you are using and a referal. Not everyone trusts everyone else...

 

[Left_the_scene]

If undercover LE had to follow the law they'd all be busted within the first hour of going undercover.

IANAL. I have, however, done a lot of pro-se shit, tho. So I sorta kinda have the equiv of a "jailhouse degree", I suppose. Maybe.

It is my understanding that undercover LE DOES have to follow the law. Confidential informants, however, are another matter.

NYLE loves to use CI's, when they can get them. Being as risky as it is, though, they usually need some heavy coercion to get them to "volunteer" for an actual sting operation (as opposed to the usual pay for what info they may have overheard deals) so chances of running into a CI type sting for a hobby bust are slim to nil. Running into such a sting buying large quantities of drugs would be another matter.

In any case where an actual LE person (cop, fed, ada, or whatever) truly breaks the law, if there are arrests, you can expect heavy push for a plea (if felonies were involved) and then probably everything eventually nollied anyway in the end, or sentenced to time served during booking/arraignment. The PR nightmare that would be caused if it came out in court that LE had actually broken the law would be just too much.

Now, that said, some of the screening does not break the law - for instance, whipping out Mr. Happy for a sample is perfectly legal before any suggestion of money changing hands has taken place. So just because I guy whips it out would not necessarily mean he is a not a cop. BUT, the whole PR thing applies - what would the publics response be if it got out that cops were doing that? The public will tolerate some "crossing the line" for things like drugs that have an image of being more violence related, and will probably tolerate much less for something like an incall place being raided. Or even less for a single provider getting busted. Think bout the press field day, along the lines of "Single mom arrested on prostitution charges alleges NYPD had her preform oral sex before bust"

In the end, LE is 98% politics.

 

[Left_the_scene]

Screening is reassuring, it demonstrates someone is professional. I understand the discomfort but, so far at least, reference checks have been fine. The thing is though, it's a small world, and more than once I've had the experience of seeing someone and realising "oh you are X who Y was talking about". I always keep my mouth shut.

Had that happen to many times. Worst is when customers are being discussed. It is a SMALL world, and you'd be suprised what can be figured out about someones identity on so few clues.

Girls: take a hint - we REALLY don't want to hear about other customers. It makes things akward. I really don't care about the last customer wanting a 45 min BJ and him not getting hard the whole time, and how he was probably on coke. I'm sorry it made your neck hurt, but no matter what a pain in the ass he was, you need to forget about it when he leaves!

Don't tell me what he neighborhood he lives in, or if he is married. Don't tell me his first name! Don't tell me if he is a regular, and if so what his usual date/time/location is.

When the friend/business line starts to blur, the above type of info being shared is more likely IME. But just because a client is a friend does not mean you can count on him to be mentally stable 100% of the time. Esp. if you know that client to have substance abuse issues.

(I actually had a provider give me all that info about one client without me wanting to know about it.)

Had a very bad situation that wound up messing with a few relatively innocent peoples lives develop out of the above scenario (with me being the substance abusing psycho that the info was given too...) Wives were called. Lawyers wound up being involved. Lawsuits were threatened. Criminal charges were threatened. People were stalked. Maybe someday it will be written up in the "looking glass". I think a few of the parties involved may be here. Maybe not. If any of you ARE here, I can only offer my most heartfelt apologies.

 

[warofworld]

This thread has been very helpful, thank you.

 

[relatively safe]

Unless a sting is on high tech video, which is rarely done for this, with exceptions like Marion Barry, who was a targeted elected official, and there were also drugs involved, LE can say whatever they want about what happened. It is their word against the arrestee.

Almost every DRUG bust involves accusations against LE like "there was 2 million in cash, and LE kept 1 million, or they kept half the "stuff," or they beat me, or they planted it. While it is reasonable to assume that some of all of the above goes on, that is the reason they now use video. It is a lot more compelling to show a jury a video, and there is no way to muddy the waters with any accusations against LE.

There was an agency working out of a hotel in Plainview a few years ago, the owner called herself "Julie." Newsday reported that there WAS video surveillance, but supposedly only in the common hallways. Who knows what is true. Along time ago, a handful of NYC brothels got popped, and let LE wire the whole places up. The plan sort of backfired when a HUGE percentage of the video tapes had LE shaking down the brothels for free sex, or cash, or both.

My point is, if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, both provider or hobbyist would probably not beat a conviction by some of the precautionary urban legend out there, as correctly stated earlier in the thread.

 

[FlirtyWifeChristine]

about references... any smart hobbyist should always have at least 3 current providers, complete with contact info and session details to help jog the providers memory. Are they useful? Depends on the girl, we call all references, but then we also look up their ads, web site and reviews. Sharp girls look for inconsistencies, and look for depth (such as a references reviews are made buy hobbyists with more than 10 reviews each. see the trend here? could it all be falsified - yea, but at huge expense & trouble. Further, when we are on the phone with the reference, we ask about their details, do they match our own research as to her reviews and ads - we don't just trust anyone.

Building good solid references is one of the easiest ways to keep your real name and work phone number out of the verification process. However, some ladies seeing a gent for the first time would require such info.

What they do with it? well there are services that will run your info to get more info, then all that info is cross references against a variety of databases, violent crime, gun ownership, previous convictions or arrests, sex crimes, etc.

As someone stated earlier, its not so much that we care who you are, we just care who you are NOT. During our initial screening of a new client, we will ask for this info if we do not know any of the girls first hand - its an added precaution that keeps us safe.

No references? Then we highly encourage you to use Date-check and P411 to get started and build your hobby resume. Eventually, you can discontinue membership and go off of a strong hobby history. Until then, the more info you give the girl as she has requested (or in advance) the more she will be likely to trust you and set an appointment.

Skittish to give a girl that much info? Thats not our fault, it does not make us crazy or "whores" as someone liberally likes to use the phrase. You have two options, they both require effort.

1) do more research on your desired provider to get comfortable enough to give her that info. Look up her ads, look up her domain name, ask for her reviews, ask her for references (yes, it happens), ask what boards she is active on, ask where her reviews are (sometimes the info is out there, just not where you are looking) google her email address, phone number and URL. Keep digging until you are either...
A) Satisfied
B) Decide its time to change girls and go with someone else with more history.

2) Find someone else who doesn't care so much about her safety and take your chances - odds are, if she doesn't care enough about her safety, why the hell would she give a shit about yours. (and WHEN she is busted - oh, and she WILL get busted, you can worry that maybe she had just enough info on you to lead LE right to your door).

What do we do with all your sensitive info AFTER you have been cleared?
If you have given us your "hobby #", all we will keep is your first name and a nickname associated with your "hobby phone", the rest is deleted once you are verified.

There is nothing wrong with asking a girl to delete this info after you are cleared, and nothing wrong with reminding her to do it if she has not given you indication that she has.

In the end, just keeping your name or phone number off the "records" is not enough. In a high profile bust, all kinds of stuff can get unraveled from your email address, ip address, machine configuration, you can (eventually) be identified. The safest thing to do is NOT to hobby.

Thats our 4 cents.

xxoo

Christine & Alex - Married Provider Couple
Phlirty Phun and Phantasy Adventures in Phoneix

 

[justlooking]

Skittish to give a girl that much info? Thats not our fault, it does not make us crazy or "whores" as someone liberally likes to use the phrase. You have two options, they both require effort.

1) do more research on your desired provider to get comfortable enough to give her that info. Look up her ads, look up her domain name, ask for her reviews, ask her for references (yes, it happens), ask what boards she is active on, ask where her reviews are (sometimes the info is out there, just not where you are looking) google her email address, phone number and URL. Keep digging until you are either...
A) Satisfied
B) Decide its time to change girls and go with someone else with more history.

2) Find someone else who doesn't care so much about her safety and take your chances - odds are, if she doesn't care enough about her safety, why the hell would she give a shit about yours. (and WHEN she is busted - oh, and she WILL get busted, you can worry that maybe she had just enough info on you to lead LE right to your door).

Or Option (3), think out of the box and find ways to buy sex that don't involve dealing with over-the-counter commercial sex providers who have these quite proper concerns.

There are CERTAINLY ways to avoid needing to give personal information to strangers that don't require you to patronize skanks with no concern for safety.

It simply isn't as black-and-white as some OTC service providers would have you believe.

 

[FlirtyWifeChristine]

option #3 gold diggers

Or Option (3), think out of the box and find ways to buy sex that don't involve dealing with over-the-counter commercial sex providers who have these quite proper concerns.

There are CERTAINLY ways to avoid needing to give personal information to strangers that don't require you to patronize skanks with no concern for safety.

It simply isn't as black-and-white as some OTC service providers would have you believe.

lol. yea, its called go find yourself a civie gold digger (or something along those lines). but then, deal with the drama that comes with it. There are pros & cons to everything and there isn't a zero consequence option as some others would have you believe

 

[bananos]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to these boards as you can see, and I'm new to this entire world in general. I've spent a few months lurking around on various sites, but I've been holding back on making the jump in.

I've taken up to looking at Craigslist to see whose around and available. I just found someone who didn't require me to call with my phone (as I am really nervous and don't know what to say on the phone) but had Yahoo Messenger.

Let me cut to the point, I messaged the girl and she asked me if I have any references. Being new, I have none. So she asks me to sign up for a webcam session with her on webcam.com as a means of verifying that I am safe.

Has anyone else had a provider ask them to verify themselves this way? I am really not interested in spending money on a webcam show, especially not with my credit card. Does anyone more experienced have any thoughts on this matter? Is she trying to scam me into paying for a webcam show and then never meet up with me?

 

[FlirtyWifeChristine]

CL girls that verify w/ webcam = scam!

Hi everyone,

Let me cut to the point, I messaged the girl and she asked me if I have any references. Being new, I have none. So she asks me to sign up for a webcam session with her on webcam.com as a means of verifying that I am safe.

Has anyone else had a provider ask them to verify themselves this way? I am really not interested in spending money on a webcam show, especially not with my credit card. Does anyone more experienced have any thoughts on this matter? Is she trying to scam me into paying for a webcam show and then never meet up with me?

yep. this is a common scam, and rarely does the lady ever plan on meeting you - but she will ask you to escalate the web cam time until you get tired.

Do yourself a favor.

1) Get yourself a disposable / throw away hobby phone.

2) Become a member of date-check & P411 and start by seeing a few girls from there. Some will ask for references and explain your new.

3) Get active on your local discussion board. it could take months of your making posts, but you can refer to your board posts and your history lets a provider know your serious.

4) heres the hard part, put yourself in her shoes, how does she know you are not a danger to her? You may need to offer some personal info to help get through referencing the first few times, but stick to well reviewed girls that are on Date-Check or P411 and at least you can be about 95% certain they are not scammers.

hope this helps.

xxoo

Christine & Alex - Married Provider Couple
Phlirty Phun and Phantasy Adventures in Phoneix

 

[bananos]

Great, thanks a lot for your advice!

 

[Timvadc]

Good thread, more questions

This is a good tread.
Could some explain to me what a 2-call system is? I see it in some reviews of how someone got through to a provider.

Also, it seems impossible to maintain anonymity - which I don't like. Once you call with your own number, that is logged for every (my outbound phone log, her inbound); plus any other information that can be obtained. My concern is that LE will start posting phone numbers if a provider is arrested. Also, joining a service creates a log also.

Lastly, I was asked by a private AMP to send them an email from my work email account so they can do an employment verification. Anyone ever heard of this??

Thank you in advance for the response.

 

[donquixote04]

... Could some explain to me what a 2-call system is?...

You call the first time to set up a meeting at the provider's incall location. She doesn't give you the address, but says to go to a corner near her location and call her again when you get there. You go there and call the 2nd time. She looks out a window and checks you out. If she likes what she sees, and doesn't get any bad vibes, she picks up and gives you her full address, including apartment number. If she does get a bad vibe or doesn't like what she sees, she usually will just not pick up, or send your call straight to voicemail. If voicemail is full, you don't even get to leave a message. Rude. Sometimes, guys continue to call for 5, 10, even 20 minutes.