article re: Patriot Act

skagen · Nov 4, 2002

Not sure what this has to do with imprisoning people without the basic right of an open legal trial or legal representation - a practice which is nothing less than barbaric.

What is increasingly clear to me is that many of the same people who run around waving the US flag and spouting jingoistic "USA" crap actually do not even understand, let alone believe in, the basic principles of a democratic society.

Reel Deal · Nov 4, 2002

And many waving the US flag and spouting jingoisms cannot even read the US or state constitution, and continue to push us over the Socialism Cliff...

See a good memorial service recently?

Ozzy · Nov 5, 2002

Thorn..

Interesting you bring up those names..

Nixon.... We all know what happened to him when he tried to abuse his powers.

Hoover.... He sure didn't have a file on you now did he? If I'm not mistaken when he made that quote (about having a file on everyone) it was in reference to some very well known people who had ties with organized crime... ie... Frank Sinatra and Sam Giancona (who was sharing pussy with JFK at the same time). And for those who still can't fathom old blue eyes being involved with the mob, I direct you to look up Tommy Dorsey and comments he once made about how he was strong armed by the mafia into letting a young Sinatra out of a contract to sing in his band, thus allowing him to embark on his solo career.

Btw… here’s Sam Giancana’s and Sinatra's FBI files http://foia.fbi*****/giancana.htm FILE NUMBER 92-3171, http://foia.fbi*****/sinatra/sinatr1a.pdf FILE NUMBER 166-5477. Sinatra actually has several files in the FBI archives.

Here's an alphabetical listing of the files they keep on everyone http://foia.fbi*****/alpha.htm

Now, try as I did... I couldn't find one on my mom or dad or anyone else I know who was around from the 30's to the 60's (when Hoover was in office)... So obviously J Edger was lying when he said he had a file on everyone.

As I said... If it's not abused (which you are all assuming it will be) I don't think the Patriot Act is that big a deal to the average citizen on the United States who follows the laws of the land and stays out of trouble (I can assure you they won't be reading MY mails-e). Besides... if they wanted to abuse their powers as you say, and play "big brother" on all of us... I don't think they would want to enact this type of public record to do it. Fact is this country is supposedly at war, and every time this country has entered into a "war", its citizens have had to make certain sacrifices for the cause. Frankly I think most of the rights accorded to us are grossly abused (“freedom of the press” which allows publication to invade a public citizens privacy, "freedom of speech" which allows hate organizations like the KKK to gather and rally or for animals like members of NAMBLA to even exist under that guise). Now I'm not saying these rights need to be removed, but they shouldn't be allowed to be abused because of 200 year old terminology in our constitution.

Now as for these detainees people keep harping about…. Recently everyone thought this govt. was inept at tracking down this sniper, yet they knew who they were for days and misled the public into believing that they had no leads…. I bring this up as an example that we’re not told everything and sometimes for a very good reason. If everyone wants to live by assumptions… why not have a little faith in your government and assume they’re not telling us (or the UN) everything about these detainees nor of what they really know about Saddam and friends.

Apparently Allen or Slinky banned the use of “ .G O V “ from hyper linking to government website from UG (probably for good reason)... So to read those files you'll need to fill in the blanks in a new browser.

skagen · Nov 5, 2002

You mean like the Japanese-Americans is WW II? Yeah, no doubt. And for today Arab-Americans - or anyone who happens to remotely look similar or associate with them, even Indians. Sounds facist to me.

Last I checked, American democracy is founded and **sustained** on several bedrock principles, including OPENNESS and ACCOUNTABILITY. This one fails the test woefully by both of those measures.

"Faith in your governent is something the US political system assumes is bad. That's why you're supposed to participate and ask questions. That's why we're supposed to have public records and balance of powers between the various arm of government. Its a counterweight to the inevitable abuse of power by the executive arm - particularly so in this age when something as vapid and deceptive as TV COMERCIALS are the dominant driver of voting decisions...

Ozzy · Nov 5, 2002

That's not what I was talking about....

Funny how you never rebut my points, you only say more anti government drivil.

Reel Deal · Nov 5, 2002

They rarely argue facts. It's so much easier to call someone names and change the subject. Facts are such pesky things...

skagen · Nov 6, 2002

For a man who is known for genrating thesis-length posts, you can be awfully brief when you've clearly painted your self into a corner. So please, enlighten us on what you were talking about.

Who is making the sacrifices? Is it not those very people? Also, why should anyone in society sacrifice THERI human rights for YOUR benefit? Who made you better than them. Don't be chicken and go on another tangent. Answer the question. Its HERE waiting for you.

Furthermore, you still haven't addressed the fact that you keep running away from arguments that you lose.

a) That "Patriot Act" law shits on every principle of American democracy including fairness, oversight and accountability. You weren't able to deny the fact of that.

b) So then what did you do? You then basically admitted that it is a dangerous law, but said we should trust the govt not to misuse it.

c) After that, facts (NY Times article or one) were provided to you which make it clear that abuse of peoples rights is occurring and is probably only the tip of the iceberg.

d) So having run out of excuses, you make a baseless claim that people on the other side of debate are igoring your facts. That's a well know tactic of yours - when you have nothing to defend your position you turn around and accuse someone of doing something when YOU are the one doing it.

Sorry, but I call your bullshit on this one.

Ozzy · Nov 6, 2002

a) You want fairness..... tell it to the 3,000 people (and their families) who disappeared 14 months ago.

b) Yes, and we entrust the Government with lots of other dangerous things as well but you don't seem to have issues with all of those do you.

c) The NY Times article you posted (and as I stated earlier) only offered ONE side of the story. There were NO comments from the government. I offered up the DC sniper case as the most recent example of when the press is not told everything.... and usually for a good reason, yet they (the press and people) made their own judgments (calling LE inept) based solely on that. So lets assume (since you do a lot of that) that in the interest of national security that the press and the people are not being told everything about this (terrorist BS) as well.... It certainly wouldn't be the first time thats happened.... When Regan was shot no one really knew just how bad he was really injured or how close he really came to death (unless you believe that he did die and an evil double was put in his place). Shit! This government still hasn’t told the people everything that they know about the JFK assassination... why I don't know after all these years... but you can bet your ass that there's a lot more in that Warren Commission report (or perhaps left out of the report) than any of us will ever know about.

As for who is/was making those sacrifices... Apparently you know nothing about what went on in this country while we were at war between 1941 and 1945. Go ask your mommy and daddy what basic needs and necessities they sacrificed during those years. Go research how woman were forced (not by the govt) into the work force and working in factories doing manual labor because their men were away at war and there was no welfare or government support to put food on the table, there was something called the "draft" at that time which took every able bodied male over the age of 18 away from his home, job and family for the better part of 5 years, there were cut backs and rationing of rubber, copper, clothes, blankets, canned goods and other needed (by the military) items that we take for granted today. There was lots more sacrificing going on besides the Japanese internment (which I've already said was wrong in this thread) which unfortunately was a bit worse that what some others had to go thru. Lets see... There was also the cancellation of the World Series bet 42-45... Now you may not think that's a major sacrifice in the grand scheme of things... but do you think today's spoiled country would be willing to give that up for the cause? Everything with you always boils down to racism or the unfair treatment of a certain people. Here you were once again accusing me of some form of racism or condoning one of this countries darkest pasts..... and once again you couldn't be more wrong. Yet you are the one who continues to harp on the words that were written by a bunch of rich, white slave owners 200 years ago as the gospel on how this country should be governed. Speaking of those rich white slave owning fore fathers you love to preach about.... I believe it was Thomas Paine or Patrick Henry (two of this countries great orators) who once said that "To ensure freshness, The tree of liberty must be pruned with the blood of patriots from time to time". In modern english I think they meant that we must all make certain sacrifices from time to time to ensure liberty.

And what's with this "why should anyone in society sacrifice THEIR human rights for YOUR benefit. Who made you better than them." ??? Where did I say anyone should sacrifice anything for me? And where did I exclude myself from any sacrifices? Where did I ever allude to myself being "better" than anyone else?

Putting words in my mouth again are we?

Skagen... I know this is going to be a bitter pill for you to swallow….. But racism is as old as history itself. Everyone practices it, every race, every nation, every religion….. every person. White people practice it against blacks, blacks practice it against whites.... Blacks and whites both practice it against Jews, Asians, Indians, Arabs or anyone who isn't like them.... Your own race practices it against their own... light skinned blacks practice it against dark skinned blacks all the time, that's the way the world is.... It's never going to change because it's human nature. Get used to it and deal with it. Stop being such a bitter, hateful person and get on with your life. I used to think that *I* was an angry person... until I met you.

Stecchino · Nov 6, 2002

But racism is as old as history itself. Everyone practices it, every race, every nation, every religion….. every person . White people practice it against blacks, blacks practice it against whites.... Blacks and whites both practice it against Jews, Asians, Indians, Arabs or anyone who isn't like them.... Your own race practices it against their own... light skinned blacks practice it against dark skinned blacks all the time, that's the way the world is.... It's never going to change because it's human nature.

I'll expect everyone who stood on their high horse (don't make me list your names) and whined about my posts to disagree with this paragraph of Ozzy's or forever be known as spineless, fake-ass hypocrits. Let's see.

mitchmaxx · Nov 6, 2002

Thats a little different than, " Hooked nose Heeb fucks " no?

Stecchino · Nov 6, 2002

So you admit to having racist biases but take offense to me verbalizing mine? Is this what your saying, Mitch? Or do you simply prefer for people to hide or dress up their biases so as to not remind you of your own?

mitchmaxx · Nov 6, 2002

I never said a racist thing on this board, I find it quite different from giving a blanket opinion, ala Ozzy, and saying a racist statement to one group. Ozzy included all people. If he would have said, in hate, not fun, " Fat lipped coons" , or " Stupid smelly spics" , I would feel the same about those statements as I did about your " hooked nose heebs". And I'm none of the above. You have to take how its said into consideration. IMO.

Stecchino · Nov 6, 2002

Listen, let's stop playing fuckin games here.

Mitch ... do you have racist biases, yes or no? You don't have to list them, just say yes or no.

Ozzy · Nov 6, 2002

Hatred and racism are really two different things.

Say you're walking down the street with your wife or gf and a few black youths are walking towards you. As they approach you decide to cross the street so as to avoid them (because you don't trust them).... It's been explained to me that THAT is a form of racism.

Now getting in your locked car and driving by them and shouting hey niggers.... thats hatred.

mitchmaxx · Nov 6, 2002

To tell you the truth, I don't hate anyone based on skin, looks, hair. I believe everyone has a right to their own opinion, no matter how stupid I think it is. I think if you want to put all Jews, Asians, etc.. into groups, as you do, its your right. I judge people like this, if your an asshole, your an asshole, period.

Stecchino · Nov 6, 2002

Yes Ozzy, that is a form of racism, BUT, people who would do that would ALSO do ALOT of other things much worse than crossing the street when they see black youths. For one .. You think those same people would rent their house to a young, black couple? You think those same people would hire a black guy to work at their business. You think those people haven't used the word "nigger" when no one was around to hear them?

Let's stop the bullshit, PLEASE!!!

Stecchino · Nov 6, 2002

Mitch, you shoulda never started in this thread cuz i'm gonna keep coming at you til i expose you for the hypocritical piece of shit you are. You can try playing games and talking in circles but it ain't gonna work. For the third fuckin time....

DO YOU HAVE RACIST BIASES, MITCH???

(and stop hiding behind that "i don't hate anyone bullshit".)

mitchmaxx · Nov 6, 2002

Breakdown of MY company.

3 Black males

2 Black females

1 Egyptian female

1 Greek male

1 Jewish male

2 Italian males

1 Indian female

Myself- Swedish-Italian

Partner- Italian

As you can see, I'm a straight up racist. Stop throwing stones stech, you might put a hole in the glass.

justme · Nov 6, 2002

Hatred and racism are so intermingled, that I can't imagine trying to sort one from the other. It would be easier to sort all the black pebbles from the white on the world's beaches.

Still, there is a difference between admitting that you might have biases against other groups and indulging, or even reveling, in those biases.

I can say that I sin, but at the same time try to live a virtuous life. I think that to be far preferable to shrugging my shoulders, claiming that everyone sins, and then living in a life of vice. Moreover, the fact that everyone sins does not forgive my vices. Finally, not all vices are equal.

Being comfortable with posting antisemetic (or anti-anything) epithets betrays to me a deep seeded hatred of that group which trancends far beyond the regrettable biases that Ozzy is referring to.

Stecchino · Nov 6, 2002

Mitch, i have come across plenty of cowards in my life, but YOU my friend have to take the cake. I have asked you a simple question FOUR FUCKING TIMES and rather than simply giving me an answer you've tried to bullshit your way around it.

You are the WORST type of racist.

(btw, i didn't see you mention how many of your FRIENDS were black)

article re: Patriot Act

homo economicus