article re: Patriot Act
- Thread starter Stecchino
- Start date
It was the turkey...
Thorn....
"Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you"
(Benjamin Franklin)
About our founding fathers… (our founding hypocrites)
"Under the law of nature, all men are born free, every one comes
into the world with a right to his own person, which includes the
liberty of moving and using it at his own will. This is what is
called personal liberty, and is given him by the Author of nature,
because necessary for his own sustenance." (Thomas Jefferson:
Legal Argument, 1770)
“That liberty [is pure] which is to go to all, and not to the few
or the rich alone." (Thomas Jefferson 1798)
“We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed....” (Thomas Jefferson: Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776)
Well I guess according to old Tom (a plantation and slave owner), these “laws of nature” and “rights of liberty” didn’t apply to the black man. If these guys didn't apply these laws to themselves when they wrote this.... why should we hold everyting they wrote so sacred now, over 200 years later.
Thorn....
"Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you"
(Benjamin Franklin)
About our founding fathers… (our founding hypocrites)
"Under the law of nature, all men are born free, every one comes
into the world with a right to his own person, which includes the
liberty of moving and using it at his own will. This is what is
called personal liberty, and is given him by the Author of nature,
because necessary for his own sustenance." (Thomas Jefferson:
Legal Argument, 1770)
“That liberty [is pure] which is to go to all, and not to the few
or the rich alone." (Thomas Jefferson 1798)
“We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed....” (Thomas Jefferson: Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776)
Well I guess according to old Tom (a plantation and slave owner), these “laws of nature” and “rights of liberty” didn’t apply to the black man. If these guys didn't apply these laws to themselves when they wrote this.... why should we hold everyting they wrote so sacred now, over 200 years later.
Most of those being detained are being detained on the grounds of “sedition".
SEDITION: ...knowingly becoming a member of (or associating with) any organization which advocates the overthrow, reformation of the existing form of government of this state or of betraying the state into the hands of a foreign power by violence or unlawful means.
Note... I think the Arab-Americans today are a lot better off than the Japanese-Americans of the early 40's. We've progressed a great deal since then. If a ONLY a few fall thru the cracks of justice and Liberty than I think that's a fair trade off when it comes to defending the sovereignty of this country and the safety of it's citizens.
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I was not on these boards...
When Noriega was incarcerated. Your charge of hypocricy has little basis of fact, since you have no idea how I felt about that issue.
I believe in the Constitution. You don't. So don't go telling me to move somewhere else, because it seems like its YOU who does not like living under the Supreme Law of the land.
And I am damned glad that the founders made it very hard to make changes.
JB
When Noriega was incarcerated. Your charge of hypocricy has little basis of fact, since you have no idea how I felt about that issue.
I believe in the Constitution. You don't. So don't go telling me to move somewhere else, because it seems like its YOU who does not like living under the Supreme Law of the land.
And I am damned glad that the founders made it very hard to make changes.
JB
As I noted above...
The men who wrote the Declaration of Independence and Constitution didn't even adhere to them themselves. As they wrote it they themselves were guilty breaking every single inalienable right they wrote about by participating in the slave trade within this country.
So much for leading by example.
So let me get this right.... you're putting ME down for simply questioning it’s validity in today’s modern world (I never said I didn't believe in it... just that it's a bit outdated), but you praise our founding fathers whom never lived under the “Supreme Law of the land” that they themselves wrote in the first place.
btw... My Noriega comments were more addressed to those who keep talking about detained Arabs.... James, Skagen and Stecchino.
The men who wrote the Declaration of Independence and Constitution didn't even adhere to them themselves. As they wrote it they themselves were guilty breaking every single inalienable right they wrote about by participating in the slave trade within this country.
So much for leading by example.
So let me get this right.... you're putting ME down for simply questioning it’s validity in today’s modern world (I never said I didn't believe in it... just that it's a bit outdated), but you praise our founding fathers whom never lived under the “Supreme Law of the land” that they themselves wrote in the first place.
btw... My Noriega comments were more addressed to those who keep talking about detained Arabs.... James, Skagen and Stecchino.
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And as for your "RICO" comment... If you refer to Chuckie (TBD)... He's very guilty of several counts under RICO...
Anyone with a brain and half assed knowedge of his PMB politics and his involvement in Fla agencies, knows that his arrest had A LOT more to do with his "extra curricular activities"... than simply hosting a PMB...
I know you know that, so I don't think I need to elaborate on it. Anyone who thinks it was purely about promoting prostitution (not a RICO crime) or writing about hookers on his website (a freedom of speech issue) is seriously misguided.
Anyone with a brain and half assed knowedge of his PMB politics and his involvement in Fla agencies, knows that his arrest had A LOT more to do with his "extra curricular activities"... than simply hosting a PMB...
I know you know that, so I don't think I need to elaborate on it. Anyone who thinks it was purely about promoting prostitution (not a RICO crime) or writing about hookers on his website (a freedom of speech issue) is seriously misguided.
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JB....
Q...... Do you think that a publication, website, public gathering etc.. that discusses or condones the act of having sex with children (ie... NAMBLA) falls under the guise of "freedom of speech"?
The same question could be asked about assorted ancient religions (that participated in rituals like live animal or human sacrifices), should be protected under freedom of religion? I could make extreme examples of every single one of the inalienable rights that we are granted. The problem I see with our constitution is that on merit it's fine... but it doesn't define limits. It's those limits that everyone seems to abuse in this modern age.
Q...... Do you think that a publication, website, public gathering etc.. that discusses or condones the act of having sex with children (ie... NAMBLA) falls under the guise of "freedom of speech"?
The same question could be asked about assorted ancient religions (that participated in rituals like live animal or human sacrifices), should be protected under freedom of religion? I could make extreme examples of every single one of the inalienable rights that we are granted. The problem I see with our constitution is that on merit it's fine... but it doesn't define limits. It's those limits that everyone seems to abuse in this modern age.
I know of those who have been detained who did nothing wrong. I one case the man was held for 9 months with no charges ever filed then released without even an apology. Sedition is the same pretext that Hitler used to throw his enemys and finally the Jews into concentration camps. Our first priority as americans is to defend the constitution and the principals that it stands for. Anything less is the path of a coward.
this is not worth responding to... as far as I'm concerned you just made it up. You're also showing your ignorance by comparring anyone in our government to Hitler. You sound like Skagen when he speaks of George Bush... I guess in a few hundred years his name will go down in history with the likes of Hitler, Napoleon, Stalin, Attila the Hun and the rest of the worlds Barbarians.
What the hell does my visiting hookers have to do with free speech limits? If I choose to frequent hookers than I take my chances just the same as anyone else. And If I'm caught at it I'm man enough not to shred the constitution (freedom of expression?) so as to wiggle out of my responsibilities. btw... I've also double parked my car and smoked pot in the past... guess they're warming up the chair for me huh?
Noriega......... Know your facts before you type... He was NOT put on trial for several years as he sat rotting in some florida jail cell. In 1992 Noriega was tried and found guilty of cocaine trafficking, racketeering, and money laundering, marking the first time in history that a U.S. jury had convicted a foreign head of state of criminal charges. Besides... who were WE to go and remove the head of state of a foreign country, and then bring him back here to charge him in our courts for something he may or may not have done in his own country. We never even attempted to do this do Columbian drug loards.... But we did it to Noriega.
Now I'm not defending Noriega's cause.. My point in bringing that up is that I think this country set a precedent in removing Noriega from power for far less reasons (national security reasons) than Saddam. No one seemed to have issues with that move but now that it's Saddam and terrorist that we're attempting to do this to.... everyone suddenly has morals and starts throwing the constitution around.
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The only ignorance I can see here relates to:
a) Throwing away the basic princples by which we live - which is completley unacceptable, particularly when we are writing vaguely worded laws that permit people to be locked up without representation or trial. If it isn't ignorant to wecome a law of THAT type, I haven't seen ignorance before.
b) Assuming that because Arab Americans haven't been thrown in a concentration camp, they are therefore being treated justly. So anything short of concentration camps is fair treatment by the rest of society? I think the ignorance of that statement is sel-evident.
c) Assuming that by virtue of being a member of government, a person cannot possibly be undertaking efforts that are in fact negative enought to raise questions of facism or dictatorship (ie "Hitler comparisons". I'm sure that in the 1930's there were people in Germany who also refused to believe that anyone in their govt would possibly do something like like what they did. Hell even in this country, people took a long time to admit that what was done to Japanese Americans was fucked up and flat out un-American. Its ignorant to think that that it cant happen again, particularly when the current govt is eager to write laws that allow it to imprison people indefinitely and without oversight. D-U-M-B, you are, if you can't figure out what direction that kind of law is taking you towards....
a) Throwing away the basic princples by which we live - which is completley unacceptable, particularly when we are writing vaguely worded laws that permit people to be locked up without representation or trial. If it isn't ignorant to wecome a law of THAT type, I haven't seen ignorance before.
b) Assuming that because Arab Americans haven't been thrown in a concentration camp, they are therefore being treated justly. So anything short of concentration camps is fair treatment by the rest of society? I think the ignorance of that statement is sel-evident.
c) Assuming that by virtue of being a member of government, a person cannot possibly be undertaking efforts that are in fact negative enought to raise questions of facism or dictatorship (ie "Hitler comparisons". I'm sure that in the 1930's there were people in Germany who also refused to believe that anyone in their govt would possibly do something like like what they did. Hell even in this country, people took a long time to admit that what was done to Japanese Americans was fucked up and flat out un-American. Its ignorant to think that that it cant happen again, particularly when the current govt is eager to write laws that allow it to imprison people indefinitely and without oversight. D-U-M-B, you are, if you can't figure out what direction that kind of law is taking you towards....
JB.. you asked me this question...
Is it more American to support the Constitution or to tear it up???
I'm asking you if the constitution supports ones right to practice the type of speech I refrenced in my question.... If you can't give me a solid answer to that... than I'm, right when I said that the constitution is to vague and needs to be refined.
Skagen... you calling me anti American... BWAHAHAHAHAHAH! (pot/kettle..... get it?)
Is it more American to support the Constitution or to tear it up???
I'm asking you if the constitution supports ones right to practice the type of speech I refrenced in my question.... If you can't give me a solid answer to that... than I'm, right when I said that the constitution is to vague and needs to be refined.
Skagen... you calling me anti American... BWAHAHAHAHAHAH! (pot/kettle..... get it?)
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