At last, a subject I can flex my muscle on. All through high school, I studied/planned to be a sabermetrician (and, here's my first audacious statement: if you don't know what that is, you probably shouldn't be posting in this thread)
Like most of you, I never saw many of these players live, but I've seen tape, and read accounts, and played most of them in COUNTLESS Strat-O-Matic games.
I agree it's more logical to separate players by era, but an all-time list is supposed to be just that. You just need to take the eras into account.
I didn't consider Negro league players - too little scientific info to work with, and too much anecdotal stuff. It's very probable that these players were great, but you can't compare based on folklore passed down. Plus, if we take Josh Gibson, don't we also have to take Sadaharu Oh?
Also, I didn't deal with pre-1900 players - otherwise, Cap Anson, George Davis, Billy Hamilton and Willie Keeler would've been considered. Hell, those guys counted BB as hits..
You also have to consider what you're measuring - peak value or career value. I tried to consider both.
C: Johnny Bench - cannon for an arm, and hit for power. All the "greats" before him did 2 of 3 as well (defense, average, power), but no one compared two for as long as Bench did. He was the foundation of a number of World Series teams…
Runner up: Roy Campanella - who knows what could've been.
Irod - hell…if he could stay healthy, he would BE #1 - I mean, damn, reinvented the position defensively; AND hit for average, AND hit for power, AND stole bases…but you only get 90-110 games a year…
Can't consider: Piazza. Yeah, he hits well, but he only gets the attention BECAUSE he's a catcher. Put him at 1B, and he's the third best in the NL alone…And, you simply cannot ignore all the liability he brings to the position.
1B: Lou Gehrig - ok…only average to slightly above average defensively, but you can't ignore the stats. Plus, Ruth had Gehrig behind him, so there were more pitches to hit - who did Gehrig have behind him? Lazzeri? Meusel? Combs?
Runner up: Jimmie Foxx…and who did HE have hitting behind him? Stats are comparable to Gehrig's - but Gehrig has a few more championships
2B: Rogers Hornsby - yes, average defensively, but still the yardstick by which all 2B (hell, maybe even middle-infielders) are gauged. Arod may hit 40 homers - until he hits .400, he's not Hornsby…
Runner up: Nap Lajoie - a gifted fielder who was also a great hitter (for avg), and/or Ryne Sandberg. I think years from now we'll realize how special Sandberg was - like John Stockton in the NBA (one announcer once said Stockton could've averaged 25 points per game, but he chose to play the way he did, because it would result in more wins…) Sandberg, also, could do anything - great fielder, maybe the best ever. Hit for average. Hit 40 homers. Stole 40 bases.
3B: Mike Schmidt - this is tough. But, I have to give Schmidt the advantage over Mathews (or anyone else). Hitting may be close; but ultimately, Schmidt was a good to great fielder as well - and that makes the difference. Honestly, I may even rate Santo over Mathews.
SS: Honus Wagner - no one compares. Did everything well - average, speed, power (for the time), great defense. Embodied everything that the early century players stood for.
Runner up: Gotta go with Ripken here. People can make their cases for Banks and/or Yount - they played nearly as many games at other positions as they did at SS. Ripken and Yount were close defensively, and Ripken's stats as a SS were better than Yount's offensively.
OF: If you do the three best, period - it's easy: Ruth, Cobb, Mays. But, if you decide to do it position by position:
RF: Ruth or Cobb. Cobb or Ruth…Depends on what you value. For me, I'd take Cobb; but I have no problem with people who select Ruth. Neither was great defensively, and they represented the BEST of each game, when they conflicted in the early 20s.
To me, it comes down to this: One day, Cobb was getting hassled by some reporters on the great job Ruth was doing, hitting homers. Cobb said, "OK, today, and ONLY today, I'm going to play his game, so you can see it's not that hard to do." Went out, and in a double header, hit 5 homers - a record that still stands today (been tied a lot, but no one has ever hit 6 homers in 2 games). He came back after the game, and told the reporters, "See? Anyone can hit a homerun. Now I won't try anymore." And he didn't hit another homer the rest of the year.
CF: Willie Mays. Second greatest defensive outfielder of all time (second audacious statement: Andruw Jones will end his career as the greatest defensive outfielder ever. Remember - Mays played in the Polo Grounds - deep, cavernous park. Today, fences are closer - fly balls Mays would've caught are home runs today. That makes Jones' range factor all the more amazing. One year, he will break the record for putouts by an outfielder, and that too is amazing).
Runner up: Mantle or Dimaggio - pick 'em
LF: Barry Bonds - blasphemous as it is. Musial was solid, very solid - and I won't even hold all the games he played at 1B against him. But Musial hit for a higher average and more 2B and 3B (in bigger parks) - Bonds hits more HR in smaller parks - that's a draw. So, what does Musial bring that Bonds doesn't? Less strikeouts - in fact, the difference in their strikeouts is greater than the difference in their TOTAL outs (Ozzy is right - a strikeout serves NO purpose, since runners cannot advance). But, what does Bonds bring that Musial doesn't? a GREAT OBP with tons of BB; speed; and a gold glove fielder (sorry, Musial was NEVER known for his fielding…)
Rickey Henderson? Sorry - no credit goes to someone who should've retired years ago, but sticks around to break records: Last 3 seasons for Ty Cobb? .339, .357, .323 and 36 steals. Last 3 seasons for Rickey? .315, .230, .227 and 98 steals. Rickey has lost his value…
Relief: I can't even come up with someone - too new; too many possible candidates. Plus, with my starters, I don't need relievers
LHP: Gotta go with Koufax - but, if he keeps it up, Randy Johnson will supplant him. Mimicked Koufax's career - from the wild beginning to the dominance at the end, but Randy may do it longer.
Carlton/Grove - get consideration for longevity; and each had ONE amazing season; but nothing to compare to the prolonged dominance of Koufax or Johnson.
RHP: Greg Maddux - no, he's not my #1 choice; but, realize, as dominant as Johnson has been; the last player to put together two years like Koufax, was Maddux. The difference is - Johnson and Koufax look overpowering. Maddux always looks hittable (and this year, he is!).
I'd have to go with Walter Johnson - maybe Mathewson and Alexander; add Maddux, and #5 - I guess Gibson, although, really, for the #5 spot, any number of players qualify: Feller, Marichal, Clemens, Palmer, Seaver.
Lemur
