The Best Ever!!!

[occasionalhobbyist]

Re: Wagner

Originally posted by Lemurrush


But, that's the point - you cannot put them in a vacuum, and assume they'd ALL face the same pitching, etc...just compare their average, etc...to the league average - determine how much above their peers they were. Wagner TOWERS over Yount that way...

Wagner's impressive in any era: .327 BA, 8 batting titles. 15 consecutive seasons over .300. (To LR's point, the league BA was .268 in this same period.) 9 seasons with more than 100 RBI. 700+ lifetime stolen bases. Defensively, an absolute star. And, remember our discussion of "big" shortstops? He was 5'11", 200 lbs, comparing favorably with Yount (6', 170).

Oz: to your point of "modern pitching" I think I mentioned this earlier with the case for Shoeless Joe, but most ballplayers who transitioned from the pre-1920 era to the post-1920 "live ball" era saw a serious pop in their batting averages. So, Wagner's stats, while impressive, may likely have been much moreso, at least in terms of average, had he played later.

It does become very hard to compare these guys to modern players. For example, there's no statistical record (at least where I'm looking) of strikeouts prior to 1910. I am confident it's not the stat it is today, but it does make for some holes. Elias sports bureau probably has access to better stats...

SC: Completely agree that the difference between potential and actual performance is the key. As for McGwire, he was certainly on my short list of first basemen. His 98 feat helped bring baseball back.

W: I will NEVER concede that Bonds is the best player of this generation. EVER!!! Good stats, sure. Leadership? No. He's a distraction in the clubhouse. I'd take Jeff Bagwell (talking about unmentioned 1B-men) over Bonds.

For 3B, no one's mentioned Graig Nettles. But I suspect I know why (lifetime .248BA). Chipper's stats are pretty good, I must admit, even if he does play for Atlanta. Wimpy: Brett topped .300 twice post-86 (.306 in 88 and .329 in '90 when he won the batting title, only guy to do it in three difft decades.) But you're point is still valid. Lifetime Chipper's got a ways to go, though. Brett hit .305 career against a lg avg .265; chipper's doing .307, but the lg is at .272.

Boggs is an interesting case. On the personal side, not that admirable. But as in Wagner's case above, lifetime .328 average, over a span when the league BA was .268.

Think about that...

 

[Aristotle]

I'm surprised there aren't more of you voting for the guy Casey Stengel called "the best defensive right fielder I have ever seen."

 

[justlooking]

Ummmmmm, K.S.???

 

[Ozzy]

i guess old casey never saw roberto clemente.

besides..... don't we already write about enough nuts in the other threads. you have to wonder if JP would have made a good LI hooker considering his mental problems.

 

[wimpy]

Barry Bonds

Unlike other sports, liking a teammate is not high on the list in baseball. Ruth and Gehrig were not fond of each other. The Oakland A's that one three in a row fought all the time.

Baseball is the only team sport where greatness is measured by individual accomplishment. Do you think because Bernie Williams has won four world championships makes him a hall of famer? Better than Barry Bonds or Ken Griffey Jr or Sammy Sosa? I think not. I am a crazed Yankee fan and the past six years have been great. But if Texas says A-Rod for Jeter...That is a done deal. A-Rod is better than Jeter and Nomar. And you put A-Rod on the Yankees in 96-2001 and the Yankees win the same amount of Championship probably even win 97 and 01. And if they both retired today and only one gets into the Hall...A-Rod goes first. With that said don't you think A-Rod wishes he was with the Mets.

So in Bonds Case, Jeff Kent(I broke my wrist washing a car) can hate Bonds. But Jeff Kent would not be half the player he is now without Bonds in the lineup.

Yeah Rickey Henderson is hated but every teammate loves him. Fick the media. The media wants every player to march to there drum. If you don't your a cancer.

I quote Mike Piazza last December when asked about Barry Bonds. "I could care less about the lockerromm stuff. If he hits the homeruns and helps get me to the promised land. He's alright with me."

 

[Aristotle]

A question for the group:

Considering all the fluffballs K.S. knocked in the direction of Mr Pitiful over at JAG, isn't he really whoredom's own Bill Buckner?

 

[GameBoy]

Originally posted by SkellyChamp
The best ever is not based on potential (A-Rod, Nomar) or what could have been (Mantle with healthy knees). It's how they did perform.

Lemurrush - Koufax was great but you can't use the word prolonged in talking about his dominance. 4 years at best.

Well...admittedly, I said I considered both peak value and career value. And, the truth is, Koufax's peak value is astonishing...FAR superior to the rest of the league at the time...

See...Andres Galarraga had some great stats with Colorado, but so did EVERYONE -- Castilla, Bagwell, Bichette, and so on...Koufax's stats were great, and no one was even close...

Plus, there haven't been THAT many GREAT lefty pitchers...

Lemur

 

[Slinky Bender]

Re: A question for the group:

Originally posted by Aristotle
Considering all the fluffballs K.S. knocked in the direction of Mr Pitiful over at JAG, isn't he really whoredom's own Bill Buckner?

Why, because even though they were slow rollers, they still made it through his legs ?

 

[justlooking]

Mr. Pitiful should've been so lucky.

 

[occasionalhobbyist]

Originally posted by Lemurrush


Well...admittedly, I said I considered both peak value and career value. And, the truth is, Koufax's peak value is astonishing...FAR superior to the rest of the league at the time...

Plus, there haven't been THAT many GREAT lefty pitchers...

Lemur

BUT.... If you apply this reasoning of comparing them with their contemporaries, which I completely accept, the current crop of top pitchers--guys like Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Clemens and Mussina--look like absolute locks for the Hall and, perhaps All Time Greatest. This because of the dilution of pitching quality due to expansion. Although, IMHO, today's starters are in such peak physical condition, they probably would've dominated in any era thus far.

To the list of great lefty pitchers, I add... Babe Ruth.

 

[wimpy]

Originally posted by occasionalhobbyist


BUT.... If you apply this reasoning of comparing them with their contemporaries, which I completely accept, the current crop of top pitchers--guys like Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Clemens and Mussina--look like absolute locks for the Hall and, perhaps All Time Greatest. This because of the dilution of pitching quality due to expansion. Although, IMHO, today's starters are in such peak physical condition, they probably would've dominated in any era thus far.

To the list of great lefty pitchers, I add... Babe Ruth.

I think Mussina needs atleast two 20 win seasons before we start talking Hall of Fame. I believe any pitcher who can win between 240&250 with the situational managing and the five man rotation deserves HOF status. With that said please don't forget Maddux & Glavine.

I look at Mussina as a Don Sutton type. Very consistent would get you that 15-17 wins a year. But when you think he was in the same era as Palmer, Seaver, Carlton...He could not hold any of theirs jock. same goes for Niekro and Perry. They acheived HOF because they could pitch till 43.

 

[Ozzy]

not a single team showed any major interest in barry during the off season when he was a free agent...... because even THEY know what he is.


think about this......... what did A-Rod and his 50 hr's do in texas last year, and what did seatle do without him?





slightly off topic...
patrick ewing is another example of a loser.

 

[Ozzy]

Don Sutton Niekro and Perry... none of them belong in the HOF.



perry got caugt cheating (several times) and he's in.... and rose they keep out.

 

[GameBoy]

Originally posted by occasionalhobbyist
BUT.... If you apply this reasoning of comparing them with their contemporaries, which I completely accept, the current crop of top pitchers--guys like Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Clemens and Mussina--look like absolute locks for the Hall and, perhaps All Time Greatest. This because of the dilution of pitching quality due to expansion. Although, IMHO, today's starters are in such peak physical condition, they probably would've dominated in any era thus far.

To the list of great lefty pitchers, I add... Babe Ruth.

Ruth is an excellent addition...but, he can only make my team at one position (although, I did take Cobb in RF) hmmmm...

Johnson - I said before I think Randy is VERY close to Koufax...

Martinez...maybe...there have been a lot of good RHP through the years...

Clemens -- even less of a maybe...yes...he's dominant, but his ERA (esp. as a Yankee) has never been anything special. Lots of people made a fuss over his W/L last year...to me -- look at runners per 9 innings...or WHIP...that will tell you what you need to know...

Based on that - Martinez, Schilling, Johnson...all are DOMINANT...Clemens is just good. And Mussina...while VERY consistent, I definitely like the comparison to Don Sutton...hell...maybe even Rick Reuschel...

Lemur

 

[wimpy]

Oz,

I know that. But when you talk about the best ever. Individual stats count. If post-season were the case, did you ever see what Ted Williams batted in the one world series he got to. Not much better than Bonds.

Put in perspective, just because a provider has nice body, sicks great dick and can fuck like a rabbit doesmean I want to marry her!

 

[Ozzy]

notice i didn't put williams in my line up. not because of his one post season but because he wasn't a team player. also notice that williams only made it to one world series..... something bonds will never do.

 

[SkellyChamp]

Originally posted by Ozzy
bobby bo single handedly pulled that '92 met team into the toilet with him.

ps... how come not a single team showed any major interest in barry during the off season when he was a free agent...... because even THEY know what he is.

How dare you dis my man Vince Coleman like that. Give the man credit too.

Bonds - I think the fact that he no team wanted to pay a soon to be 38 year old player close to $20 mil per year for 3-5 years had more to do with no suitors than the fact that he is an asshole and not a team player. If he was 32 or even 35 he would have gotten lots of interest notwithstanding. But he is at the age now where skills can diminish very quickly. (With all due respect to Carlos Baerga who holds the record for youngest age to diminishing skills).


Lemurrush - There is always going to be a bigger pool of righties than lefties to choose from. And I'm certainly in agreement that Koufax was a great pitcher those four years and that he retired very early. But the fact is he did and there is no actual acheivement to look at other than what he did. And 4 years is not enough to qualify for the greatest ever. Not when you have Hubbell, Spahn, Carlton, Ford et. al.

 

[Ozzy]

SC...

but didn't Vince and brett (saberhagen) have good reps before they ran into bobby in the locker room. from what i heard both had the "bobby made me do it" excuse when they got in trouble. an over rated manager had a lot to do with that fiasco as well.

now can someone explain why they brought back bobby last year?


Carlos Baerga.... was it really diminishing skills that did him in or just that he became a mental case.

 

[robnotbob]

Maybe that's why Baerga's nickname was "Cabeza" when he was with the Mets.

 

[Stecchino]

Baerga

That boy did have a big head, lol.

On another note, i can't believe this Ruben Sierra sh*t. (talk about coming full circle)