Politics and prostitution

#1
I originally posted this to the wrong thread, so I am cross posting it here.

I often avoid debating politics on boards like this, as it can be such a frustrating exercise. However, in reading some of the contributions to the various threads, I couldn’t help but notice the correlation to some of my earlier observations of similar discussions on other prostitution related boards. Specifically, I have observed that
despite the reasonable assumption that those that condone prostitution would more likely have liberal tendencies, the vast majority seem fall somewhere between moderate and hard-line conservative. Indeed, I find it humorous that anyone engaged in prostitution, be they john or hooker, would support an administration that involves a religious zealot like John Ashcroft.

I suppose many would argue that they are supporting the administration out of a sense of nationalism, etc. That’s understandable, but it also affords the administration a significant opportunity to dilute the people’s civil liberties and pursue their ultra-conservative agenda under the guise of “national security”. Where do we draw
the line? Many feel that these are minor concessions compared with the prospect of the harm that may befall us if we are not vigilant. While the is an understandable position, the big question is do we really want people with such biases and beliefs redrawing the boundaries of our civil liberties? With a loss of Congressional checks and balances due to single party control and a predominately conservative Court, I fear we are about to return to the dark ages. This does not bode well for people on this board and others like it. Nor does it bode well for those that might like to go to any sort of adult establishment or view adult material online. Will things like this disappear? Probably not, but they will become exponentially more difficult to enjoy (see, e.g., strip clubs in NYC).

Of course, Bush is the perfect president for this era in which we live - this cultural anti-renaissance. Just like the Spice Girls, boy bands and “reality” shows, he is the manufactured product of his strategist. An intellectual lightweight, unaccomplished businessman and uninspiring leader. He has been thrust into the spotlight of history and has done little more than keep the seat warm. Of course, without the issue of terrorism and coupled with his disastrous economic policies, he would certainly be destined to a single term as president. If the democrats
can develop a clear and unified platform, coupled with a candidate the nation can respect, this may still be the case. The question remains - Is this nation ready to elect another Roman Catholic Senator for Massachusetts?

--wsb
 
#2
I tend to agree.

My thinking, if it had to be labeled, is probably closest to the Libetarian platform. Socially liberal, fiscally conservative [practice whatever vices you can that don't effect other's directly, and maintain yourself in the process...don't ask me to pick up the tab].

Historically, I think the current administration benefits from a war time atmosphere similar to past examples in Roosevelt, Wilson, etc. It is simply the other end of the same coin.

We have a little bit of the old, "My Country Right or Wrong", going on just now. I'm waiting for the George M. Cohan tunes to make it back to the hit parade any moment now. :)
 

pjorourke

Thinks he's Caesar's Wife
#3
As you must know from you work as a wsb, financial models often sacrifice accuracy for simplicity (e.g. Price = earnings x multiple). So too for political labels. I don't think there is any such thing as a "pure" liberal or a pure conservative. (Okay, maybe Paul Wellstone and Gary Bauer, but those are rarities.) Like Thorn, most of us agree with bits and pieces of various political philosophies. And the same would be true of GWB and the people who form his administration. Therefore, a blanket statement like "I find it humorous that anyone engaged in prostitution, be they john or hooker, would support an administration that involves a religious zealot like John Ashcroft" is nonsensical on its face.

In fact, I would be willing to bet any amount of money that you wish to name that there are members of this administration (i.e., appointed by the President or Cabinet secretaries) that engage or have engaged in this "hobby" of ours as either johns or hookers.
 

pswope

One out of three
#4
Damn I don't want to post this

Pj
While I agree with your last graf, it merely serves to emphasize the hyprocrisy of pandering to the religious right.

Politics has become more about building and maintaining bases of power rather than implementing sincerely held beliefs and the inept Dems implosion have paved the way to major base building assimilation of the center by the Elephants.

Sadly for the cause of commercial sex participants, cracking down on it is one of the easiest and most politically expedient ways to pander to the right without alienating the center.
 
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#5
Here is another thought to factor into the political equations. How many hobbyists partake, at least in part, because hobbying is illegal? It adds thrill and excitement to the act, for it is forbidden, legally and morally. And the converse may also hold true: Those who want to legislate against prostitution may be fighting against their own inner desires and cravings. Don't forget, several years ago there was a prominent TV evangelist, Jimmy Swaggert, if I remember correctly, who was disgraced for frequenting a prostitute.

Those conservatives who want to legislate against hobbying may just be the flip side of the same coin of those conservatives who enjoy hobbying!

Now, how do we explain the "liberals" (like myself) who enjoy it? (By the way, PJ, I agree with your anti-generalities post. Though I am distinctly liberal, especially in the area of civil rights, I also have issues on which I sound conservative to Libertarian.)
 
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#6
The focus is conservative=hypocrit.

I say, what about the shoe on the other foot?

I ask you: how many liberals fly around in a personal jet? How many drive SUV's? How many belong to clubs who exclude a politically correct group? How many are on Boards of a Public Company with questionable accounting practices? How many cheat on their taxes?

Liberals pander to the socialists/communists. Conservatives pander to the religious.

So what?

We are neither Communist (although the hard-right would disagree) or a Theocracy (although the commie-libs may disagree).

Commercial sex is not on their radar screen to the extent those who frequent PMB's may think.

Besides, the left views prostitution as "exploitation" of woman, as vigorously as the right views it as "immoral".

The reality is that government is the left's religion, as much as judeo-christianity is the right's religion. One secular, one theologic.
 

pjorourke

Thinks he's Caesar's Wife
#7
Pswope, I am shocked, just shocked that there is hypocrisy in politics!

I fully agree that politics to day is much more about building a coalition of generally like-minded than pushing “pure” programs. Everybody in the tent clearly does not have exactly the same goals and objectives, but the collective goals are more similar to theirs than the ones in the other tent.

I remember seeing part of some cable talk show the night after the election (I think it was on CNBC) with three very conservative talk-show types (G. Gordon Liddy, Bob Dornan and some other guy). These guys were licking their chops – declaring Roe v. Wade all but overturned in light of the Republicans taking control of the Senate. However, then the head of the Republican National Committee joined them and threw cold water on their party by declaring that the Administration did not have any Roe v. Wade litmus test for choosing Supremes. Its only interest was in choosing Justices that interpret law and let legislatures write it. If that happened to produce a verdict that overturned Roe v. Wade that was fine with him personally, but it was clearly not an Administration goal. A lot of those Republican soccer moms support Roe and it was more important to him to keep them in the tent than to pander to another group (i.e., the Religious Right) that surely was not going over to the other tent.
 

pswope

One out of three
#9
In for a dime, in for a $

PJ/RD

Me thinks your too senstive about the right. My post was intended to apply to all politcians. The vast majority are fucking hypos.

The info age has spawned this era of ' coalition building '. Starting w/ the dems triangulation and now Karl Rove looking at demographic pyschic like he's a product manager at Procter & Gamble looking to position a new laundry detergent. Principles take a decided back seat to expedience.
 
#10
Re: In for a dime, in for a $

Originally posted by pswope
[SNIP....]
Principles take a decided back seat to expedience.
RAH once wrote that the mark of an honest politician is that he{/she} stays bought.

In this day and age, with all the coalition building that takes place, it is too damn hard to figure out who has actually bought a politician. It is therefor hard to decide if he/she is honest.
 

pjorourke

Thinks he's Caesar's Wife
#11
psw

Sensitive hell! I agree with you. The vast majority of politicians of all stripes are hypocrits. Thats basically why I'm a Libertarian. I figure that if the government didn't have any power, we wouldn't need to have these turkeys.

My original post was directed at wsb where I took issue with his blanket statement that hobbyists are crazy to support GWB. I thought my second post actually supported your point.

In GWB we have the first Harvard B-School President. Any wonder that Karl Rove acts like P&G or that the Iraq conflict resembles the rollout of Windows XP on steroids?

redleg

Simple solution. Assume that they are all dishonest. You are less likely to be disappointed.
 
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#12
Originally posted by pjorourke
As you must know from you work as a wsb, financial models often sacrifice accuracy for simplicity (e.g. Price = earnings x multiple). So too for political labels. I don't think there is any such thing as a "pure" liberal or a pure conservative. (Okay, maybe Paul Wellstone and Gary Bauer, but those are rarities.) Like Thorn, most of us agree with bits and pieces of various political philosophies. And the same would be true of GWB and the people who form his administration. Therefore, a blanket statement like "I find it humorous that anyone engaged in prostitution, be they john or hooker, would support an administration that involves a religious zealot like John Ashcroft" is nonsensical on its face.

In fact, I would be willing to bet any amount of money that you wish to name that there are members of this administration (i.e., appointed by the President or Cabinet secretaries) that engage or have engaged in this "hobby" of ours as either johns or hookers.
PJ --

I think you missed the point entirely. Do you believe that the current administration, coupled with a Republican controlled Congress, is likely to set forth policy with respect to civil liberties that is helpful or harmful from the perspective of the average participant in the board and others like it?

Administrations set policy from the top down. The White House decides and the cabinet members implement that policy. The political philosophies of the cabinet members, and indeed the cabinet members themselves (especially in the GWB administration), are chosen for maximum PR effect, not because the administration wishes to build a consensus. Do you think Rice and Powell were chosen b/c they were the best candidates for the job? I don't know where you are going with your assertion that members of the administration may have engaged in the "hobby". Are you suggesting that this is more likely to make them go easy on issues that would impact "hobbiests"?

--wsb
 

pjorourke

Thinks he's Caesar's Wife
#13
Very simply, I dont believe that any administration, coupled with any Congress, is likely to set forth policy with respect to civil liberties that is helpful from the perspective of the average participant in the board and others like it? Left and right both think we are pond scum.

And, for the record, I have repeatedly expressed concerns about the trampling of rights in OFC that flowed out of a shitty piece of legislation called RICO, which was supposedly directed at organized crime. The Patriot Act will make that look like a tea party. However, I dont think either piece of shit law is a product of a left or right point of view. Rather, I think they are both the natural result of giving too much power to government, whatever the flavor thereof.

Re my wager/assertion, my only point was that the cast of characters in the Administration is not monolithically negative against our point of view.
 
#14
Just to be clear, I am not simply addressing the issue of prostitution. I am speaking about our right to engage in and/or express ourselves with respect to a broad range of "adult" activities and interests. While neither party may wish to support or condone such activities, I would be exponentially more concerned in the scenario where the nation's chief law enforcement officer is a bible-thumping religious zealot. I don't agree with the argument that all factions of both parties are equally likely to infringe upon our rights. While they all may agree we are "pond scum", some are more determined to rid the country of the pond scum than others.

--wsb
 
#15
Originally posted by wsb
Just to be clear, I am not simply addressing the issue of prostitution. I am speaking about our right to engage in and/or express ourselves with respect to a broad range of "adult" activities and interests. While neither party may wish to support or condone such activities, I would be exponentially more concerned in the scenario where the nation's chief law enforcement officer is a bible-thumping religious zealot. I don't agree with the argument that all factions of both parties are equally likely to infringe upon our rights. While they all may agree we are "pond scum", some are more determined to rid the country of the pond scum than others.

--wsb
I respect your perspective.

But one question: Which, on the whole, is more dangerous to our freedoms and traditional way of life-the erosion of "adult" rights which are currently illegal under law (sidebar and note to self: change the frickin' laws!!!), or the further implementation of Political Correctness, and the systematic silencing of those who are not a member of a "protected" group?

My point is that we always complain when our ox is gored, but not the other guys ox...
 
#16
Originally posted by pjorourke


the head of the Republican National Committee joined them and threw cold water on their party by declaring that the Administration did not have any Roe v. Wade litmus test for choosing Supremes. Its only interest was in choosing Justices that interpret law and let legislatures write it. If that happened to produce a verdict that overturned Roe v. Wade that was fine with him personally, but it was clearly not an Administration goal. A lot of those Republican soccer moms support Roe and it was more important to him to keep them in the tent than to pander to another group (i.e., the Religious Right) that surely was not going over to the other tent.
Give me a break! Sure, this is great spin directed at the soccer moms, but do you REALLY believe that overtruning Roe is not high on their wish list? If their idea of ideal candidates for the Supreme Court are strict constructionists like Scalia, do you really think there is any doubt that Roe will be overturned? The beauty is that they don't have to take a stand on such an issue that would piss-off the soccer moms, but they still keep the guys on the right happy.

--wsb
 
#17
RD --

I am not only addressing "adult" activities that are illegal. New York City is a great example of what can happen when one party, and indeed one person, calls all the shots. If we take the amendment to the 60/40 legislation as an example, the sole purpose of this amendment and the original legislation is to effectively eliminate businesses that a certain portion of the population deems objectionable or "immoral". According to PJ's theory, this sort of thing would happen irrespective of which party is in control. I strongly doubt that.

--wsb
 

pjorourke

Thinks he's Caesar's Wife
#18
A number of responses to wsb:

a) I agree that Ashcroft is a bible-thumping religious zealot that should not be allowed to be a kindergarten hall moniter, let alone the nation's chief law enforcement officer. However, I think you overstate his influence. His more extreme positions will be held in check by the political calculus necessary to keep soccer moms in the tent. We have survived a number of extremely shitty AG's (John Mitchel, Janet Reno), we will survive him. Like RD, I would be equally uncomfortable with Martha Burk or one of her ilk making decisions as to my rights of free expression.

b) I don't agree that a new strict constructionist Supreme would automatically result in abortion being outlawed. I'm told by people that know more about the subject than I, that the legal reasoning itself in Roe is pretty bad. But that being said, there is some constitutional basis for a right to privacy and personal decisions in this area even among strict constructionists. The court could (1) leave it stand - they don't have to take a case (2) they could affirm on another basis or (3) they could overturn and throw it back to state legislatures to draft (or not draft) new laws controling abortion.

c) I don't see overturning Roe v Wade as a cataclysmic event in personal freedom. Like most American's I am conflicted on this subject -- I don't see a clear right or wrong here. (And if Jenna gets drunk again and knocked up by some west Texas shit-kicker, GWB may feel the same way.) And I certainly don't see this subject as a make or break factor in my choice of tents. There are many more issues, much more important to my day-day life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, that are more important to me in supporting or not supporting an Administration.
 
#19
If there's a good basis for a general constitutional right to privacy and personal decisions among strict constructionists, I'd like to know what it is.

I mean, I'm a liberal and I have a hard time reconciling Roe with the United States Constitution.
 
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