Falling for a Provider

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Maybe I'm not really amazed and shocked really. But I'm really glad it's not me and there is something definiitely unhealthy about it. MAybe that's why I can't understand it. (Not suggesting that I'm healty and functional, after all I've spent 30 years seeing prostitutes). But there seems something even more perverse by not only seeing prostitutes but getting involved (and feeeling the need to get involved) in a prostitutes life and work.

Over the last few months or so, I've been finding that reading UG as a place where I come to put my life in perspective and feel good about who I am and what I'm doing - or really trying to do.

I don't really mean that to come out in a superior, condescending way. Or that I'm better than anyone else. Lord knows we all have our issues and I'm certainly a leader in that group. Maybe its limited to my reviewing why I did (do) this and that I've determined that I'd rather put my efforts into my relationship with my wife.
 
Originally posted by Wwanderer


On a more general note, I think the difficulty many people have in seeing the similarity between relationships and behaviors in the hobby world versus more common and public areas of life is, in itself, very interesting and suggestive.

-Ww
I would say the same thing but substitute the word "differences" for "similarity".
 

Wwanderer

Kids, don't try this at home
Originally posted by SkellyChamp
I mean I really don't understand this. In over 3 decades of hobbying (OK haven't been really active the last 2+ years), I've paid women to suck my dick and leave. Even if I found them or some aspect of conversation interesting, I couldn't conceive of wanting to move beyond the purely commercial relationship.
Do you have the same total lack of interest in anything other than a purely commercial relationship with everyone with whom you do business or who does business with you? If not, I think it primarily shows that you regard the hobby and the people (at least the women) involved in it very differently than you do other aspects of your life. I could say that you might be ashamed of your participation or conflicted about it or some such pure spectulation, but whatever the exact reason, it would seem that there is a difference in attitude on your part. The explanation for what you find so hard to understand is that some people do not regard the hobby as so exceptional....just as another thing they do and enjoy.

-Ww
 

Wwanderer

Kids, don't try this at home
Originally posted by justme
And of course, inasmuch as you're actually paying your dentist to be a nice guy to you, and inasmuch as he knows this, I suppose friendship with your dentist would also be filled with the same sort of concerns as friendships with a prostitute.
I have the impression that a lot of people pick physicians more on the basis of their "bedside manner" (how pleasant they are to deal with, how comforting and sympathetic they are) than on that of their medical expertise and skills. In that sense, a sort of fake companionship is a part of what the doctor is selling.

-Ww
 

Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator
In almost every survey I've seen on the subject for the hospitality industry, when people were asked about thier favorite restaurant, they didn't answer with any of the three things which are the classic measures of a resataurnat - Food, decor, or service. Each time, the top answer has been "because they know my name and treat me as if I'm a friend". But the "as if" is the important part. And that's what people are paying for. And it has nothing to do with sex.
 

Wwanderer

Kids, don't try this at home
Originally posted by slinkybender
In almost every survey I've seen on the subject for the hospitality industry, when people were asked about thier favorite restaurant, they didn't answer with any of the three things which are the classic measures of a resataurnat - Food, decor, or service. Each time, the top answer has been "because they know my name and treat me as if I'm a friend". But the "as if" is the important part. And that's what people are paying for. And it has nothing to do with sex.
And, as with providers, there is not the slightest question in anyone's mind that it is a faux friendship that is being purchased as a part of the package with the food, service, decor and so forth...just as a provider's companionship is a part of the package you purchase with the sex.

Now, once again hitting my latest angle on this, if you somehow find the idea/possibility of developing such a faux buddy into a real friend with someone who works in your fave restaurant (say your waitor or waitress) any less pathetic, prepostrous, difficult, dellusional, misguided or whatever than it would be with a provider, then I think that you are somehow less comfortable with the fact that you are a john than you are with the fact that you dine out in restaurants...or that you think providing is less respectable work than waiting on tables or something along those lines.

-Ww
 

justme

homo economicus
wwanderer, I'm not even too sure I understand what you're arguing anymore (or if you're even arguing against a point of view that's being taken in this thread).
 
Originally posted by Wwanderer


And, as with providers, there is not the slightest question in anyone's mind that it is a faux friendship that is being purchased as a part of the package with the food, service, decor and so forth...just as a provider's companionship is a part of the package you purchase with the sex.

Now, once again hitting my latest angle on this, if you somehow find the idea/possibility of developing such a faux buddy into a real friend with someone who works in your fave restaurant (say your waitor or waitress) any less pathetic, prepostrous, difficult, dellusional, misguided or whatever than it would be with a provider, then I think that you are somehow less comfortable with the fact that you are a john than you are with the fact that you dine out in restaurants...or that you think providing is less respectable work than waiting on tables or something along those lines.

-Ww


exactly
 
in my recent debacle of a relationship with a provider, before it turned ugly i did do a couple of things right i think. after our second commercial date, i recognized that we were moving beyond a professional relationship, and she was letting down some of her barriers. we had discussed some mixed social and commercial activities (taking a trip to vegas for a weekend), and i had said i could/would pay for everything but not an hourly fee on top of expenses, and she was cool with that.

the third commercial date, we had dinner, but it did not feel like justlooking stlye foreplay. at that point (after dinner) i decided to raise the issue headon--before we started anything, i told her i was feeling like we were becoming friends, and that i did not feel comfortable with paying her to have sex with me. i would only want to have sex with her if she wanted to, not for cash, or i would enjoy hanging with her without having sex at all.

at the time i envisioned (hoped) i could turn her into a 'party girl', that i would take on trips occasionally, or fly her out to new york to see me, the commercial aspect would be confined to my paying for everything, with the occasional gift or shopping trip; and the social aspect would be ambiguous, and to be determined as we went along, i guess, but definitely casual, with few if any strings. asking her to quit working or to have any serious emotional relationship was far from my (conscious) mind. that was the plan. really.

but instead as reported above, she said she wanted to quit and asked for help, i gave it to her, took her off of the market for six weeks, and in the process fell for her hard. broke up, and she returned to the biz.

i think forcing the issue early, friends or business, was a good idea. i think most working girls would have laughed in my face, which would have been a good thing as a reality check. but i also figure this type of party girl arrangement is possible, maybe even common, maybe not with pros but with girls on the margin, or moving toward professionalism.

otoh, my closest friend who is a provider, i saw her professionally only once, and since then (much to my chagrin) she steadfastly refuses to fuck me, claiming that 'you are like a brother to me'. and i hang out with her anyway. i think that is true friendship.

and slinky, when does my new nickname, 'naive dreamboy' become official?
 

Wwanderer

Kids, don't try this at home
Originally posted by justme
wwanderer, I'm not even too sure I understand what you're arguing anymore (or if you're even arguing against a point of view that's being taken in this thread).
You are right; I have wandered off the main thread of the debate/discussion (this is the net, right...wandering off is allowed, especially for someone with my screen name!) and am now mostly talking about a side observation/thought that interests me. Basically I am trying to explain, to myself at least, why it is that so many other hobbyists have so much trouble with the idea of a real human connection with a provider...why it is seen as so difficult, unwise, pathetic, dangerous or whatever.

If I think of anything further to say about our main points of discussion (surely there can't be many points left to be made), I will certainly post it. The primary important point which I have made and which I feel no one has much addressed is that of the ambiguous and evolving nature of these relationships and how that makes all these hard and fast rules (e.g., it is not a real friendship if she is... or unless she would... or whatever) a bit useless "in the field", so to speak.

-Ww
 
Ww-my field trip was certainly ambiguous, and not so much evolving but rapidly changed back, forth and back again. i have tried to describe these aspects. retrospectively i am grasping for rules to apply, not real successfully
 

Wwanderer

Kids, don't try this at home
Originally posted by howardnotstern
Ww-my field trip was certainly ambiguous, and not so much evolving but rapidly changed back, forth and back again. i have tried to describe these aspects. retrospectively i am grasping for rules to apply, not real successfully
There is much to think about in your excellent, longer post above, but I am too tired to think more tonight...will probably find something to say tomorrow. For now, my only comment is that I think it is better to look for lessons than rules. Rules are crude tools when it comes to any type of significant relationship with other people...too complex for simple rules. A sermon I have already given too many times here. And I think it says quite a lot that you have not instantly jumped to the very simple rule that most people go for when they get hurt in a relationship gone bad, namely the "never again" rule.

-Ww
 
Originally posted by Wwanderer


Do you have the same total lack of interest in anything other than a purely commercial relationship with everyone with whom you do business or who does business with you? If not, I think it primarily shows that you regard the hobby and the people (at least the women) involved in it very differently than you do other aspects of your life. I could say that you might be ashamed of your participation or conflicted about it or some such pure spectulation, but whatever the exact reason, it would seem that there is a difference in attitude on your part. The explanation for what you find so hard to understand is that some people do not regard the hobby as so exceptional....just as another thing they do and enjoy.

-Ww
Well you are right to the extent that I regard the hobby differently than other parts of my life, just like I regard getting a haircut differently. Each part of my life (hopefully) serves a purpose - some more than one and some part of one.

I hobby, and always have, for a very specific purpose. I am not conflicted about it and never have been - tho I will admit it has lost some of its appeal because of a change in my goals.

This has nothing to do with other commerical endeavors. That's apples and oranges.

My purpose of paying for sex is to have no-strings sex when I want it. No great secret hidden agenda. I have no problem with any provider just like I have no problem with my barber ( a woman) or any other person who provides a service to or for me so long as they provide the service I'm paying for.

Apparently there is a difference in attitude. It's funny because I was thinking that you were conflicted and in denial about your reasons for hobbying.
 

pswope

One out of three
plurality(?)

1. Most agree that a commercial relationship (paying for sex&/or companionship) is at odds with the essence of friendship.
2. Many would agree that entering into a commercial relationship seeking friendship is misguided;
3. Notwithstanding 2, many would agree that it is possible for a relationship,that began commercially can morph into a friendship.

Thus to me,based on the above it seems that a john/working girl cannot simulaneously maintain a commercial relationship(involving $$ hwr and whenver it is exchanged) and a friendship.


ergo the Milkmaid rule.
 
Re: plurality(?)

Originally posted by pswope
1 Thus to me,based on the above it seems that a john/working girl cannot simulaneously maintain a commercial relationship(involving $$ hwr and whenver it is exchanged) and a friendship.
Fine. But what about the rather large middle ground?

What about Business Relationships?

These can be friendly, even affectionate. There is no reason why a business relationship can't provide some of the features of real friendships.

Plus, I agree with the many shades of grey that exist between friendship and business relationship.

And don't tell me that without the money, the relationship goes away. Because that's also true of many marriages.

It's not that neat or clean or clear.
 
It's interesting as everyone tries to pin down motivations and relations, and develop some kind of litmus test for them.

In my view, the "extended dates" approach to hobbying is tres dangereaux. Basically seeking to manipulate what ought, in my view, to be a straight exchange into an exchange of something more. If you're rich, you can do this. Which sort of underscores my genetic predisposition towards class warfare. But I digress.

In a recent stream of social science research, a number of academics are trying to pin down what exactly constitutes a 'relationship' (of any sort; we're not talking about hobbying. though I am pursuing my doctorate in hobbying, of course...).

Anyway, the research team with which I'm familiar sat around and watched a college administration's exchanges with various different other organizations and found that the perceived strength of a relationship could be reasonably estimated based on the number of interactions between an organization and outsiders.

So, maybe there's some basis to this notion that the more time you spend together, the stronger the relationship. Now, what kind of 'relationship' you have is up to you to define. But I thought I'd throw that relatively mundane observation into the discussion mix.
 

Wwanderer

Kids, don't try this at home
Originally posted by SkellyChamp

I hobby, and always have, for a very specific purpose. ... My purpose of paying for sex is to have no-strings sex when I want it. No great secret hidden agenda.

Apparently there is a difference in attitude. It's funny because I was thinking that you were conflicted and in denial about your reasons for hobbying.
Yes, there you have it in a nutshell...the explanation of what you have described as a great puzzle (to you) in previous posts. I, and many others, have different purposes and thus different attitudes.

Personally, what I am looking for in the hobby is a general good time and an enrichment/increase in my (positive) life experiences. In that sense, the hobby metaphor is quite an accurate one; people pursue many types of hobbies for the same general reasons. Imho, "no-strings sex" is (usually) a good time and is, by itself, a sufficient reason to hobby. However, it is also only a tiny fraction of the good times that the hobby can provide if you don't stuff it into some rigid predefined box labeled "sex and nothing but sex", so to speak.

To me, the idea of hobbying for the "sex and nothing but the sex" would be akin to (say) playing golf for the exercise and nothing but the exercise, i.e., with no willingness to enjoy the satisfactions of mastering a skill, competition, being outdoors in beautiful scenery, the companionship of other players and so forth. If all you want is the exercise and care nothing for the rest, fine...different strokes for different folks and all. But it sure seems an odd approach to living and having fun to me. I guess I am just more of an opportunist than that at heart.

-Ww

PS - Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you don't feel conflicted about the way you play this game; I don't have any misgivings about my approach or involvement either...not even a little bit.
 
I've been thinking about this, and here's the problem I have with this "ambiguous evolving friendship" stuff (aside from the basic "why would I look for friendship in this context?" problem).

You go to a bar, get "friendly" with a cocktail waitress, it's pretty easy to tell if your "relationship" has gone beyond mere professional "flirtiness": you go somewhere together in her off-hours. Because even though the "professional flirtiness" is part of her job, it's incidental: her essential job is to sell you drinks. If she sees you when you're not working, you can assume you're "friends". You don't have to agonize over it.

Obviously with a prostitute it's different, because even the "I'm only buying a suck and fuck" guys have to agree that "friendliness" isn't incidental to her job the way it is to the cocktail waitress's. Wwanderer would say that any emotionally mature person can distinguish true friendship from professional friendliness, but I'm not sure about that. I think he ignores the fact that a sex worker can genuinely like you but still view you solely as someone she has a business relationship with.

So the problem I have with Wwanderer's position is that I think it's not worth it. I don't like to always have to be agonizing over whether the other party has the same view of our "relationship" as I do -- because, Wwanderer's views notwithstanding, I think that in many ways the way she would act would look virtually identical whether or not she believed we were real friends rather than business acquaintances.* The very ambiguity that he seems to find interesting to me seems to be nothing more than a wholly unecessary source of discomfort. For in the end, what do I get out of considering her a friend rather than a business acquaintance, anyway? How am I any better off?

So I think it's just better to treat all these relationships as business ones. It keeps me from agonizing over things that really don't matter. And it keeps me from acting inappropriately, too.
___________________________________________
* This is all assuming that you're still seeing her only in connection with paid sessions. If you spend a significant amount of purely social time together, then of course there's no ambiguity. But this whole dispute has centered around Wwanderer's insistence that that distinction is too "bright line" and arbitrary. I have to repeat, though, that I find it hard to believe that anyone can credibly claim "friendship" with someone who has never agreed to spend significant non-working time with him.
 

Wwanderer

Kids, don't try this at home
Re: Re: plurality(?)

Originally posted by oddfellow4870
Fine. But what about the rather large middle ground?
Plus, I agree with the many shades of grey that exist between friendship and business relationship.
It's not that neat or clean or clear.
Precisely. BIG DITTO.

-Ww
 
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