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- Thread starter niceguyli2004
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Dumb question here. I have had the tactics changed on me. I never asked for a number but was asked for mine and given hers. She called me in the club to make sure the number was correct. She spent several hours with me only leaving to do her set. She did not ask for drinks but I did offer. A single lap dance early in my stay and never asked again. As I was leaving I got a big hug and kiss and I slipped her a tip of my own doing, she never asked me for anything but my number. I have not had this happen before I was always the persuer not the persuei (sorry for the spelling). Opinions are welcomed.
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Cut and paste for you Axe
This was crossposted with a lot of things that make this post redundant. I need to learn to touch type.
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We all have barriers and selection criteria to determine who we sleep with, and all of our barriers and relative importance of each criterion are different.
You might be OK fucking an ugly person with a great personality. Someone else might be willing to deal with vapid intelligence in order to score an ideal body. Some people need to know the person they sleep with very well, other people will sleep with strangers. And some people will only sleep with strangers if they are attractive enough.
The variables that enter into the equation are myriad.
One variable that enters into the equation is whether or not the sex is paid for. But even this variable is of different importance to different people.
Some people might want straight payment, but will sleep with anybody. Other people will take the payment, but only sleep with people that have gone through a screening process. Other people may have sex for money, but only if that money is disguised in the form of goods or services. Some will have sex for money, but only if that money is considerable (how many homophobes would take it in the ass for, say, $100 million dollars?)
Every prostitute has some kind of screening process, and they're all different. We accept that. However, I believe there is a type of person that does not categorize herself (grammer forces me to pick a gender) as a prostitute. However, that person will sleep with some people for money that they wouldn't otherwise sleep with. The number of such people that they'd be willing to sell sex to, however is relatively small. This type includes kept women, UTRs that only keep a few regulars that she meets through referrals only (I think milkmaid did this for awhile), women that cater to sugar daddy lights and some otherwise "good girl" strippers. These individuals require substantially more than just money in order to have sex. They demand their prospective 'johns' to bring some other set of criteria to the table, but I think this criteria is almost always heavily weighted in the direction of familiarity and comfort.
See, there's two types of strippers that will sell sex. There are the bad girls, that are really just prostitutes disguised as strippers. Then there are 'good girls' that as a rule do not sleep with customers for money, but will make exceptions to that rule if the customer meets their criteria.
Of course, there are also good girl strippers that will never sell sex, despite the degree of comfort and amount of money... but I think this group is actually a very tiny percentage (despite what everyone claims).
But these two types of sex selling strippers tend to offer very different types of service. The bad girl stripper, as mentioned, is essentially a prostitute and on the average gives the same kind of service as a prostitute. The good girl with conditions however tends to give a different type of session. Maybe it's because she has to build a certain level of comfort before she's sees you, and therefore is more comfortable than a prostitute; maybe it's because she isn't burned out from performing x sex acts a day; maybe it's because she doesn't know to have the emotional barriers that most prostitutes have but for whatever reason, the sex you can get from this kind of girl can be much closer to real sex than average commercial sex with a prostitute. The flip side of this is that she could be so timid and freaked out about the whole thing thats she delivers terrible service.
There's some sort of interesting observation that the same things that can make such a session go unbelievably well, can also make them go unbelievably horrible.
Cheerful's approach of suggesting services during a lap or waiting for services to be offered will work fairly well with bad girl. But if you want that kind of service, there's any number of brothels that will serve you.
Cheerful's approach will never work with a good girl with conditions. The four hours that you spend with this girl on the first night aren't enough to overcome her barriers, to make her comfortable to the point that she'll sell you sex. Worse, if you try this approach, you may end up alienating the dancer forever because you have implied that you think she might be a prostitue, something that she doesn't see herself as and something that is highly stigmatized.
If you indeed want to pay for sex from such women, you have to build a relationship (although a strictly business relationship) over time. You have to overcome whatever criteria that she has, and often that means spending enough time with her that she builds a certain level of trust or comfort with being sexual with you.
But this happens all the time in strip clubs, within the confines of 'normal' strip club behavior. What stripper doesn't begin to feel more comfortable with regulars? I've had strippers that refuse to drink with customers, but over time would drink with me. I've had strippers that absolutely refused any kind of crotch fondeling, but eventually (after a few visits) let me do that. I've had strippers that wouldn't kiss, but eventually lap dances became more like making out.
However, throughout all of this, there is no misconception of the commercial nature of the relastionsip. Both the stripper and myself have always understood that if the twenties stopped flowing, so would the drinking, fingering, kissing or whatever. I am still a customer, but now I am a valued customer.
Cynics will say that I'm just throwing money for access, but I think there's something more profound going on. I really believe that aside from money, the time I spend talking to these women allow themselves to feel more comfortable around me. It's simple human nature to be more comfortable around people you see a lot, and who do not go out of their way to make you uncomfortable (and this is why it's extremely important to never push too hard for extras).
Suppose I have spent $1,000 over a month on a 'good girl' stripper and now she'll reutinely give me a handjob, make out with me, and so my standard lap dance is leagues away from the bump and grind she's giving other customers. I don't think that some new customer can just walk in the club, and offer the same girl $1,000 for the kind of service I'm getting. If they can, then she's just a bad girl stripper and I've been wasting my time and money. The fact that she won't provide this service to a new customer implies that there is another factor in my increase in service that is altogether different from money. But (and I reiterate this for empahsis), money is still the driver. Money determines whether or not she'll give me sexual services, comfort dictates the degree of services.
And so eventually, the degree of comfort might get to the point where I can ask her to fuck me for money. I don't do it blatantly because it is critical that I let her continue to think of herself as 'not a prostitute', I merely suggest that we can do the same kind of things that we're doing at the strip club, but that we can do them in a hotel.*
Now some might say this is a horribly inefficient way to go about finding a commercial sex partner. But suppose you're going to go to strip clubs anyway. And suppose your strip club M-O is to have a regular stripper that will give you better and better service. Well in this case, none of this 'effort' is wasted because it's something you'd do anyway. Even if the girl won't see you outside of the club, you've still gotten your money's worth over the development. This, by the way, is why it's critical to never spend more than you'd be willing to provide for the immediate services rendered. It's also why you have to do your best to find a woman that will be somewhat interested in what you have to say, and will have things to say that are interesting to you. Since you're going to be spending some serious time chatting this girl up, you don't want a series of typical vapid strippershit dialogs. But establishing mutual interests does wonders for imporving her comfort level with you which gives you immediate returns in the club, and might provide you with excellent long term returns.
It's also important to remember that you're not just finding a commercial sex partner, but you're finding a part timer that doesn't think of herself as a porstitute. By and large, there are few venues where the process is as straightforward as what goes on in a strip club, because there are very few venues where you can observe increasing comfort with exchanging more and more 'serious' service for money. It also helps that strippers, almost by definition, are more comfortable selling their sexuality to strangers than the average woman, and so are probaly more likely to be convinced to sell actual sex.
It's also important to realize that I am not seducing some poor girl into believing that I want some romantic relationship with her. Throughout the entire progression, money is always exchanged. Moreover, niether of us has any illusions that she'd be there if I wasn't giving her money or that I'd be there if she wasn't giving me service.
Crap, this is long.
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* - For the sake of accuracy, I should point out that I have never gotten to the point where I ask a stripper to sell me service outside of the club. I just don't have the long green necessary to get someone to this point. I do, however, have enough to get her a part of the way there, so I'm fairly certain I can see the progression.
This was crossposted with a lot of things that make this post redundant. I need to learn to touch type.
----------------------------------
We all have barriers and selection criteria to determine who we sleep with, and all of our barriers and relative importance of each criterion are different.
You might be OK fucking an ugly person with a great personality. Someone else might be willing to deal with vapid intelligence in order to score an ideal body. Some people need to know the person they sleep with very well, other people will sleep with strangers. And some people will only sleep with strangers if they are attractive enough.
The variables that enter into the equation are myriad.
One variable that enters into the equation is whether or not the sex is paid for. But even this variable is of different importance to different people.
Some people might want straight payment, but will sleep with anybody. Other people will take the payment, but only sleep with people that have gone through a screening process. Other people may have sex for money, but only if that money is disguised in the form of goods or services. Some will have sex for money, but only if that money is considerable (how many homophobes would take it in the ass for, say, $100 million dollars?)
Every prostitute has some kind of screening process, and they're all different. We accept that. However, I believe there is a type of person that does not categorize herself (grammer forces me to pick a gender) as a prostitute. However, that person will sleep with some people for money that they wouldn't otherwise sleep with. The number of such people that they'd be willing to sell sex to, however is relatively small. This type includes kept women, UTRs that only keep a few regulars that she meets through referrals only (I think milkmaid did this for awhile), women that cater to sugar daddy lights and some otherwise "good girl" strippers. These individuals require substantially more than just money in order to have sex. They demand their prospective 'johns' to bring some other set of criteria to the table, but I think this criteria is almost always heavily weighted in the direction of familiarity and comfort.
See, there's two types of strippers that will sell sex. There are the bad girls, that are really just prostitutes disguised as strippers. Then there are 'good girls' that as a rule do not sleep with customers for money, but will make exceptions to that rule if the customer meets their criteria.
Of course, there are also good girl strippers that will never sell sex, despite the degree of comfort and amount of money... but I think this group is actually a very tiny percentage (despite what everyone claims).
But these two types of sex selling strippers tend to offer very different types of service. The bad girl stripper, as mentioned, is essentially a prostitute and on the average gives the same kind of service as a prostitute. The good girl with conditions however tends to give a different type of session. Maybe it's because she has to build a certain level of comfort before she's sees you, and therefore is more comfortable than a prostitute; maybe it's because she isn't burned out from performing x sex acts a day; maybe it's because she doesn't know to have the emotional barriers that most prostitutes have but for whatever reason, the sex you can get from this kind of girl can be much closer to real sex than average commercial sex with a prostitute. The flip side of this is that she could be so timid and freaked out about the whole thing thats she delivers terrible service.
There's some sort of interesting observation that the same things that can make such a session go unbelievably well, can also make them go unbelievably horrible.
Cheerful's approach of suggesting services during a lap or waiting for services to be offered will work fairly well with bad girl. But if you want that kind of service, there's any number of brothels that will serve you.
Cheerful's approach will never work with a good girl with conditions. The four hours that you spend with this girl on the first night aren't enough to overcome her barriers, to make her comfortable to the point that she'll sell you sex. Worse, if you try this approach, you may end up alienating the dancer forever because you have implied that you think she might be a prostitue, something that she doesn't see herself as and something that is highly stigmatized.
If you indeed want to pay for sex from such women, you have to build a relationship (although a strictly business relationship) over time. You have to overcome whatever criteria that she has, and often that means spending enough time with her that she builds a certain level of trust or comfort with being sexual with you.
But this happens all the time in strip clubs, within the confines of 'normal' strip club behavior. What stripper doesn't begin to feel more comfortable with regulars? I've had strippers that refuse to drink with customers, but over time would drink with me. I've had strippers that absolutely refused any kind of crotch fondeling, but eventually (after a few visits) let me do that. I've had strippers that wouldn't kiss, but eventually lap dances became more like making out.
However, throughout all of this, there is no misconception of the commercial nature of the relastionsip. Both the stripper and myself have always understood that if the twenties stopped flowing, so would the drinking, fingering, kissing or whatever. I am still a customer, but now I am a valued customer.
Cynics will say that I'm just throwing money for access, but I think there's something more profound going on. I really believe that aside from money, the time I spend talking to these women allow themselves to feel more comfortable around me. It's simple human nature to be more comfortable around people you see a lot, and who do not go out of their way to make you uncomfortable (and this is why it's extremely important to never push too hard for extras).
Suppose I have spent $1,000 over a month on a 'good girl' stripper and now she'll reutinely give me a handjob, make out with me, and so my standard lap dance is leagues away from the bump and grind she's giving other customers. I don't think that some new customer can just walk in the club, and offer the same girl $1,000 for the kind of service I'm getting. If they can, then she's just a bad girl stripper and I've been wasting my time and money. The fact that she won't provide this service to a new customer implies that there is another factor in my increase in service that is altogether different from money. But (and I reiterate this for empahsis), money is still the driver. Money determines whether or not she'll give me sexual services, comfort dictates the degree of services.
And so eventually, the degree of comfort might get to the point where I can ask her to fuck me for money. I don't do it blatantly because it is critical that I let her continue to think of herself as 'not a prostitute', I merely suggest that we can do the same kind of things that we're doing at the strip club, but that we can do them in a hotel.*
Now some might say this is a horribly inefficient way to go about finding a commercial sex partner. But suppose you're going to go to strip clubs anyway. And suppose your strip club M-O is to have a regular stripper that will give you better and better service. Well in this case, none of this 'effort' is wasted because it's something you'd do anyway. Even if the girl won't see you outside of the club, you've still gotten your money's worth over the development. This, by the way, is why it's critical to never spend more than you'd be willing to provide for the immediate services rendered. It's also why you have to do your best to find a woman that will be somewhat interested in what you have to say, and will have things to say that are interesting to you. Since you're going to be spending some serious time chatting this girl up, you don't want a series of typical vapid strippershit dialogs. But establishing mutual interests does wonders for imporving her comfort level with you which gives you immediate returns in the club, and might provide you with excellent long term returns.
It's also important to remember that you're not just finding a commercial sex partner, but you're finding a part timer that doesn't think of herself as a porstitute. By and large, there are few venues where the process is as straightforward as what goes on in a strip club, because there are very few venues where you can observe increasing comfort with exchanging more and more 'serious' service for money. It also helps that strippers, almost by definition, are more comfortable selling their sexuality to strangers than the average woman, and so are probaly more likely to be convinced to sell actual sex.
It's also important to realize that I am not seducing some poor girl into believing that I want some romantic relationship with her. Throughout the entire progression, money is always exchanged. Moreover, niether of us has any illusions that she'd be there if I wasn't giving her money or that I'd be there if she wasn't giving me service.
Crap, this is long.
---------------------------------------
* - For the sake of accuracy, I should point out that I have never gotten to the point where I ask a stripper to sell me service outside of the club. I just don't have the long green necessary to get someone to this point. I do, however, have enough to get her a part of the way there, so I'm fairly certain I can see the progression.
Thanks Wolf!!
aha...it looks familiar...I understand the categorization process. No problem there. What I'm after is some elaboration on the 'stages' you progress through that end up with you banging her in a hotel room. I think I saw one of JL's posts describing how you get her to steadily do more and more extras at the club. But, here's the problem: what if extras at the club are not possible?
aha...it looks familiar...I understand the categorization process. No problem there. What I'm after is some elaboration on the 'stages' you progress through that end up with you banging her in a hotel room. I think I saw one of JL's posts describing how you get her to steadily do more and more extras at the club. But, here's the problem: what if extras at the club are not possible?
Maybe it's harder.
But the point still remains. You always get some escalation of physical intimacy, even in non-extras clubs.
But the more important thing is the building over time familiarity and trust. You know how it is: you get to be "friends" of a sort. It eventually can seem like it wouldn't be such a bad thing to go out on a paid basis with someone like me. You get a good dinner, you get a few hundred dollars, you get to see a nice hotel from the inside -- and all you have to do is fuck me. It doesn't even seem like prostitution.
(Thanks, wolf.)
But the point still remains. You always get some escalation of physical intimacy, even in non-extras clubs.
But the more important thing is the building over time familiarity and trust. You know how it is: you get to be "friends" of a sort. It eventually can seem like it wouldn't be such a bad thing to go out on a paid basis with someone like me. You get a good dinner, you get a few hundred dollars, you get to see a nice hotel from the inside -- and all you have to do is fuck me. It doesn't even seem like prostitution.
(Thanks, wolf.)
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ok, this is a variation on the 'non-pro' thing. Or, maybe not even that. It is the 'non-pro' thing.
A related problem is that in the lower mileage places a lot of time gets wasted because there isnt much to do. So the strippers are very open to wasting time with someone they like - but thats it. Yeah, its harder.
A related problem is that in the lower mileage places a lot of time gets wasted because there isnt much to do. So the strippers are very open to wasting time with someone they like - but thats it. Yeah, its harder.
Recently, If I have an interest in a stripper, After spending some time with her, I let her know that I have never said this before, but I want to see you outside of here. If they say yes, I ask them straight out, would it be business or pleasure. Luckily, lately, I have been getting the answer, pleasure of coarse. If they say, we can talk about that, O know it is p4p. They sometimes say, I do not do that, then we know. Lately though, I have been getting them out as a np4p.
These are code words for "I'm available P4P" ?
I'm trying to get you guys to be more specific about the signs and clues that tell you a stripper is gtg for P4P/NP4P. You guys are good at this stuff, so it helps a lot to be specific instead of making it sound like you have some magic powers that others dont. What we're talking about here may be the most difficult thing to pull off. The 'stripstitutes' are easy. The ones who find you are easy. (I'm alread interested in what's happening to Wolf).
The ones who dont know they could do P4P until the right circumstances come along are not easy.
I'm trying to get you guys to be more specific about the signs and clues that tell you a stripper is gtg for P4P/NP4P. You guys are good at this stuff, so it helps a lot to be specific instead of making it sound like you have some magic powers that others dont. What we're talking about here may be the most difficult thing to pull off. The 'stripstitutes' are easy. The ones who find you are easy. (I'm alread interested in what's happening to Wolf).
The ones who dont know they could do P4P until the right circumstances come along are not easy.