Antidepressants

fairemily · May 26, 2008

Doctors don't know everything...........

There was a fascinating show on PBS last night regarding depression. There was this guy on so many antidepressants and antipsychotics I am amazing his liver is still in one piece. He also had to take a weight control pill to control the side effects from all the drugs. He had to go through 7 years of experimenting to get the right combination. He also had to see his psychiatrist once a week. I could not imagine having to keep such a stringent pill schedule just not to be depressed. I do agree with Eddie regarding SSRI, I also don't consider them a legitimate drug that cures an ailment, they are a crap shoot.

I think people are really gullible when it comes to doctors, they believe everything that is told to them and it is not always the right advice. I went to a pulmonologist the other day for a lung problem I had recently and he was clueless, I knew more about my condition then he did. I am a smart and meticulous researcher I think he was confused and angry because I challenged his knowledge. My psychologist knew more about my condition then this so called specialist. Most doctors do not like me because I don't let them manipulate me. In all my life I have completely trusted only three doctors and one of them is my cat's vet.

elmo16 · May 26, 2008

fairemily said:

If your depression is so intense that you are or have considered suicide, you would be willing to accept almost any medication. There is no evidence that any anti-depressant or anti-psychotic medication will do any thing harmful to your liver. I can understand why your psychologist is against medication, it's because only a doctor can prescribe medication. All he can do is offer talk therapy. As you say, you have serious trust issues. These are issues, not reason(s).

hmocha · May 26, 2008

EddyBearNY said:

Sounds like you had a lousy psychiatrist. Unfortunately, there are a lot of them. Like any profession, only a small percent are really any good. I went through four myself before I found one that really got me on the road to recovery. Also, different people react different ways to different meds. That is why it is important to find a psychiatrist who is really good about monitoring your reactions. Again, there are not as many of them as their should be.

hmocha · May 26, 2008

elmo16 said:

Actually, some SRIs (Zoloft is one) can have an effect on the liver over time - but it is a possible side effect, not a guaranteed outcome. It can easily be monitored by having a liver panel done as part of your blood test at your annual physical.

elmo16 · May 26, 2008

hmocha said:

There are many people who suffer from untreatable depression, this is where the Area 25 implant comes in. For people who suffer from untreatable (or treatment resistant) depression, do not respond favorably to talk or even drug therapy, no matter how good their psychiatrist is.

EddyBearNY · May 27, 2008

hmocha said:

hmocha - What scares me is that I could of easily killed myself if I followed that assholes advice. I was at a very low point in my life, but was so still strong enough not to let the thoughts over take me. If I continued the medication, only G@d knows.

You are 100 percent correct, we all re-act differently to medication. I also remember getting extreme dry mouth, and had a harder time falling asleep.

After that incident I went to my primary care physician, who gave my a puzzlingly look when I showed him the medication. I remember him telling me "what are you taking that for, there is nothing wrong with you" he told me to take benadryl for two weeks, and if I still have problems falling asleep he will discuss other short term treatments.

I have been on long term treatment for my insomnia but that's another story.

EddyBearNY · May 27, 2008

fairemily said:

I have a friend who suffers from depression. He is a Vet, so he uses the VA hospital. Over the past 15 years this guy has been on so much medication, he is turning into a vegetable. It has also been a crutch for him not to hold down a job.

I have mild asthma, and I also went to pulmonologist, he wanted to place me on a daily routine of three medications, including oral steroids. I went to an allergist, who gave me a battery of tests, and poked my skin at least 100 times for blood samples. He also wanted to place my on the same exact medication, but also included a once a week allergy shot.

End result, I carry ventilin and use as needed. Many doctors want a patient for life. Come back every 30 days for your refills.

EddyBearNY · May 27, 2008

elmo16 said:

I just don't trust them. Psychiatrists have played with patients brains for years, in quest for a cure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQHtBjoPMB8

This is an interesting youtube video.

KatherineCharms · May 27, 2008

I don't believe in dealing with depression by taking any type of pills. Since every pill has an adverse effect, you find yourself taking other pills to counteract what the first pill did.

A conscience effort to improve your quality of life and pushing yourself to get out of the house and out of the mindframe a person is in will go a lot further.

The Power of Positive Thinking

hmocha · May 27, 2008

KatherineCharms said:

You are not differentiating between situational depression and clinical depression. For situational depression this advice makes perfect sense. For clinical depression, where your brain is simply not transmitting seratonin at the rate required to be functional this not only will not work, but may not be possible.

EddyBearNY · May 27, 2008

KatherineCharms said:

That is great advice, and should work for most, but regrettably, not for everyone. Those few that can not cope (3 percent at most) have a chance of help through current medical treatments. Any treatment should be a last resort, closely monitored, and for short term,

EddyBearNY · May 27, 2008

hmocha said:

You are correct, but the chemical inbalance theory is bogus, and strictly a marketing ploy. Current advertisments must include a statement which says that "there is no proof of a chemical imbalance." Iin fact, if we could proof a chemical imbalance, then there would be a test to show the inbalance, and a test to show that the medication is working, and all the inbalance chemicals are now balanced and the medication is working fine.

Read this below:

"But why do I hear people talking about benefits from these SSRI-AntiDepressants?", you might want to ask in this stage. "They surely must work somehow don't they?" The answer is yes, they "work" somehow, but not in a very proper way. The mechanism of action on serotonergic neurons implies a lot of other neuro- endocrine responses. What actually happens when you increase serotonergic neuronal activity or elevate your serotonin levels is this: the stress hormones "Cortisol" & "Adrenaline" (Epinephrine) in the brain and body are triggered by increased serotonergic activity or elevated serotonin levels. It is a natural reaction from the body to combat the excessive serotonin levels. These released hormones, cortisol and adrenaline, are secreted from the "Adrenal Glands." They give the human personality a boost, producing a euphoric state, which can last for a prolonged period of time. In this manner SSRI-AntiDepressants initially produce the deceptive results the doctor and "patient" are both expecting. *

wolf5958 · May 27, 2008

EddyBearNY said:

I do agree with you here Eddy, Having been told that there are no side effects from these drugs Zoloft in perticular it is funny that I ended up in the hopital in a semi- coma like state from it. An alegic reaction that the doctors all said couldn't happen cause no one is alegic to it. The thing is apone further testing they found that 1% of the poulation could have these side effects and had my mother told me that she had had a simular side effect from the drug I would have never taken it. Scary that drugs can be released and not have all the known factors of possible side effects studied. That stuff nearly killed me and at the time I was 35 years old. It took me nearly 8 months to recover. I swore I would never take any of that stuff again....

elmo16 · May 27, 2008

wolf5958 said:

Any powerful drug must have some side effects. Zoloft, in particular, is know to have side effects, but if it had such a bad effect on you, any SSRI type drug would have a similar effect on you. There are anti-depression drugs that are not SSRI type. You have to find a doctor who knows the difference, and gives a shit. Just a thought, have you ever considered that you might be bipolar. Seems to me you need to consult a neurologist in addition to a psychiatrist to find exactly which meds you should take. If the statute of limitations haven't run out, and you have a case, you might also consider consulting a malpractice lawyer.

hmocha · May 28, 2008

EddyBearNY said:

I hear where you are coming from. While Serotonin Imbalance is a "theory" it is going a little far to call it bogus. It has respectable scientists on both sides of the argument.

SRIs do not increase serotonergic neuronal activity or elevate Serotonin levels. Admitedly, the end effect is the same as if they did, but I just want us to be scientifically clear (funny, since I'm not a neuroscientist - but did have one explain this all to me in great detail once).

For each message carrier released between neurons there is a secondary chemical that comes through and sweeps up the first one, clearing the pathway for the next release. These are called reuptake agents. SRI stands fro "Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitor". An SRI does just that, inhibits the chemicals that perform re-uptake of Serotonin, thus allowing enough to build up between neurons to successfully carry the message. SRIs were created based on the discovery that allowing the brain to produce Serotonin at it's own rate and just keep it longer was more effective and less damaging than chemically forcing the brain to increase Serotonin production.

fairemily · May 28, 2008

EddyBearNY said:

I was also diagnosed with mild asthma which I doubt I have, I think it's all the construction that is going on in the city right now that is causing breathing problems for me. Try making a safe room in your apartment or home. Close all the windows, have a air conditioner during the summer months and get a Honeywell air purifier and keep it on all the time. I sleep with one right by my bed and it helps alot. I was recently given a nasal spray (which I hate) and some Allegra (which I also hate) and only take it when I have really bad days. I love how they guess what's wrong with you and when you present researched information to contradict they dismiss it.

EddyBearNY · May 29, 2008

[youtube]v=PQHtBjoPMB8[/youtube]

EddyBearNY · May 29, 2008

fairemily said:

Doc's can be very pompous and arrogant. So fast to write of anything that is not in there medical book, also quick to place you on medication. I stay away from specialists, unless 100% needed. I also like the old fashion docs.

EddyBearNY · May 29, 2008

hmocha said:

SSRI's and other treatments have proven to help many patients, who without there use would not be able to function. The bad news is that the big Pharm companies are not happy with selling there medication to only those with severe clinical depression. They not only want to push it on any adult who walks into a doctors office, with any slight depression, they are now focusing in on our children.

Below is a good article that sums up the "chemical inbalance theory"

From cradle to the grave, we are bombarded with information pushing us towards a chemical “fix.” But let's take a closer look at some very important aspects of this new psychoactive, drug-centered philosophy.

Psychiatrists claim that a person “needs” a drug to combat their “chemical imbalance” in the brain which is causing a person's “mental disorder.” However, the concept that a brain-based, chemical imbalance underlies mental illness is false. While popularized by heavy public marketing, it is simply psychiatric wishful thinking.

Diabetes is a biochemical imbalance. However, as Harvard psychiatrist Joseph Glenmullen states, “the definitive test and biochemical imbalance is a high blood sugar balance level. Treatment in severe cases is insulin injections, which restore sugar balance. The symptoms clear and retest shows the blood sugar is normal. Nothing like a sodium imbalance or blood sugar imbalance exists for depression or any other psychiatric syndrome.”

In 1996, psychiatrist David Kaiser said, “...modern psychiatry has yet to convincingly prove the genetic/biologic cause of any single mental illness...Patients [have] been diagnosed with 'chemical imbalances' despite the fact that no test exists to support such a claim, and...there is no real conception of what a correct chemical balance would look like.”

Elliot Valenstein, Ph.D., author of Blaming the Brain, is unequivocal: “[T]here are no tests available for assessing the chemical status of a living person's brain.” No “biochemical, anatomical, or functional signs have been found that reliably distinguish the brains of mental patients.”

According to Valenstein, “The theories are held on to not only because there is nothing else to take their place, but also because they are useful in promoting drug treatment.”

EddyBearNY · May 29, 2008

A lot to read, but very informative

Farewell to Chemical Imbalance

How often have you heard that a chemical imbalance is the cause of depression? A hundred times? If you’re as old as me you’ve heard it a thousand times, and said by psychiatrists in tones of absolute certainty. It’s why the SSRI drugs were made specifically to put serotonin in the brain and thus right the imbalance.

However, without telling the rest of us, psychiatrists have changed their minds. A few weeks ago I was browsing the Royal College of Psychiatrists’ website. The pamphlet on bipolar disorder had been removed and I wanted to see if a new one was in place. It was, and some curious changes had been made. I then looked at their pamphlet on depression. It’s a very long pamphlet, written in a chatty way. Under the heading, ‘Why does it [depression] happen?’ is a statement which says that sometimes there’s an obvious reason for becoming depressed and sometimes there isn’t. It’s different for different people. Then there’s a list of the things that can lead you to be depressed. These are: things that happen in our lives; circumstances; physical illness; personality (‘This may be because of our genes, because of experiences in our early life, or both.’); alcohol; gender (‘Women seem to get depressed more than men do. It may be that men are less likely to admit their feelings and bottle them up, or express them in aggression or through drinking heavily. Women are likely to have the double stress of having to work and look after children.’); and genes (depression can run in families). And that’s it. No chemical imbalance.

There’s never been any evidence for a chemical imbalance in the brain when a person is depressed. That idea was abandoned by scientists thirty years ago. However, a lack of scientific evidence has never stopped some psychiatrists from claiming black was white. It took the Royal College many years to accept that the minor tranquillisers are addictive; that the monoamine oxidise inhibitors are addictive; and, more recently, that the SSRI drugs can provoke suicidal and hostile thoughts. But it does seem, at last, that the Royal College has accepted that depression has far more to do with how we see ourselves and how we deal with our lives than it does with the physical make-up of our bodies.

Even the Institute of Psychiatry at the Maudsley Hospital has moved in that direction. They’re holding a conference in April 2007 called, ‘Depression: Brain Causes – Body Consequences’. On their website the preamble about the conference states,

Depression cannot be described any longer as a simple disorder of the brain, but rather as a series of behavioural and biological changes that span mind, brain, genes, body – and indeed affects both psychological and physical health. . . The experts will present neurobiological, psychological, genetic and evolutionary models, with particular emphasis on the mechanisms linking the brain to the endocrine and the immune systems, and therefore linking depression to physical health.

So everything about us is involved in getting depressed. Not a simple explanation in sight.

What about manic depression, or, as we have to call it now, bipolar disorder? What’s happened to the gene that’s supposed to cause this? The Royal College’s new pamphlet on this disorder says:

We don't have a complete answer to this, but:

research suggests that it runs in families - it seems to have more to do with genes than with upbringing. there seems to be a physical problem with the brain systems which control our moods - this is why the symptoms of bipolar disorder can often be controlled with medication episodes of illness can sometimes be brought on by stressful experiences or physical illness.

What do they mean by ‘brain systems’? No neuroscientist talks about brain systems. Do you ever get the feeling that some psychiatrists think that the public is so stupid they can be fobbed off with any nonsense?

Ever since the late nineteenth century when the German psychiatrist Kraepelin described depression as a mental illness psychiatrists have been trying to find a physical cause for this illness. Vast amounts of time and money have been spent on this fruitless enterprise. If only Kraepelin and his colleagues had seen their patients, not as specimens to be studied, but as fellow human beings who could describe and discuss what was happening to them. If this had happened we would have come to understand a great deal more about being depressed than we do today.

In those intervening years we might have seen how it is our ideas that create pain, suffering, conflicts, poverty, cruelty, intolerance, selfishness, hatred, envy and stupidity, and that these ideas damage us. But they are just ideas, and we are free to change them. If only Kraepelin and his colleagues had understood that.

Antidepressants

lil Fuzzybear