When you disconnect the exchange of cash and sex
- Thread starter TheRealStory
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Just goes to show that there is always emotional involvement with sex. If you have sex with someone, an emotional bond will eventually develop. Not necessarily the first time, but the more often you do it, the stronger the feeling will become. For me, that's when it's time to move on. When one of my ATFs started to send me text messages and complaining about this, that and the other thing, she stopped being an ATF. I don't go to the movies to learn about somebodies problems or issues, I go to get entertained and to escape my life for two hours. Same with mongering. A GFE is nice as long as it doesn't turn into a GFE, so to speak....
One of the issues with the Grey Zone is that it is, by definition, amorphous, so you don't actually know when you've crossed over. For example, I have a relationship with one provider that is differnet, she says, from her other clients. Basically, her deal is that she "works" only part time. If she needs money, she runs a CityVibe ad for a week or two, then takes it down (this I know is true). She only does outcall and only does 1 hour sessions. That's true at least to the extent that that is what her ad says. But she sees me at her apartment (she claims that I'm the only client that she's ever taken there (impossible to verify)), and does more than one hour and more than one cup (which she also claims she only does for me). She also gives me a discount over her stated rate (basically 90 minutes for $400 which is $50 less than her advertised 1 hour rate, though our time generally stretches to 2 hours). I think (though, obviously this could just be good acting) that she actually likes me. What I've been trying to do is get her to accept payment from me for $1,250 a month (which is a bit more than I'm currently paying for three 90 min+ sessions) but keep things loose, i.e., I'd call her up when I wanted to see her (which might or might not be as much as three times a month), and if she was free we'd hook up. She doesn't want to do it, because she says that she doesn't want to feel obligated to see me when she doesn't want to, for whatever reason. The arrangement would make her feel tied down. So she has suggested that the next time we meet, we could discuss even deeper discounts. That's ok by me, but really I'd love to be able to just hook-up when I had a few hours free without having to worry about whether or not I had the cash on hand. She did say that if we ever go out on a "date" (i.e., dinner and a movie) that I only have to pay her for the dessert course.
Pretty grey, huh?
Pretty grey, huh?
She obviously doesnt want it to go grey and I wouldnt worry much about her reasons for keeping it that way.
If you're still discussing prices, discounts, etc., then it isnt very grey at all and now that it's established that she doesnt want it any grey-er what you have to do is resist the tendency to try to make it that way. IMHO, this is what causes the problems that have been pointed out in this thread. When that happens the girls say to themselves "this guy thinks I'm his gf" and they either reel you in back to reality or they go along with it making sure you overpay and then vanish or cut you off.
If you're still discussing prices, discounts, etc., then it isnt very grey at all and now that it's established that she doesnt want it any grey-er what you have to do is resist the tendency to try to make it that way. IMHO, this is what causes the problems that have been pointed out in this thread. When that happens the girls say to themselves "this guy thinks I'm his gf" and they either reel you in back to reality or they go along with it making sure you overpay and then vanish or cut you off.
To clarify on the hooker. She wasn't an atf, but rather a convenient girl that gave good service at a good price. Even though I routinely would spend 300 on a session or more with other providers, I wouldn't spend this much on this one. Not that she wasn't good, but she didn't kiss and that is a big part of things for me.
So it came down to simple math. In my mind I was going to have to pay her 240 for something I perceived was worth 120. Just like if you have advanced money to a girl, if she isn't really into you, she might feel like she is fucking you for free even though you have already paid. When there is a disconnect you take away the "mutual" in mutually beneficial and then you have to hope that people will do the right thing, even among people that by some definitons are morally flawed to begin with (which is why we post on UG).
There was never an intent for me to screw the girl out of 120, just as I am sure there was no intent for the girl to screw me out of 600. It just happened.
So it came down to simple math. In my mind I was going to have to pay her 240 for something I perceived was worth 120. Just like if you have advanced money to a girl, if she isn't really into you, she might feel like she is fucking you for free even though you have already paid. When there is a disconnect you take away the "mutual" in mutually beneficial and then you have to hope that people will do the right thing, even among people that by some definitons are morally flawed to begin with (which is why we post on UG).
There was never an intent for me to screw the girl out of 120, just as I am sure there was no intent for the girl to screw me out of 600. It just happened.
You said that your examples were not in chronological order, but I'm wondering whether #1 came before #3. Maybe there was some kind of overcompensation going on here, where you cut #3 more slack than you otherwise would have had you not (inadvertently) stiffed #1. Maybe #3 was your penance on some level, if you don't mind the term.
All three of the craiglist girls came after the initial incident with the pro I posted about.
I think people are getting hung up on the specific facts. I didn't talk about me stiffing the hooker for any other reason than to bring up what can happen when payment gets disconnected from the act.
I'm the exact type of guy that never shorts anyone, doesn't play games, and is true to my word when dealing financially with these women.
I think what I'm trying to illustrate is the complexity of feelings people have around P4P encounters. Meaning that I have no issue handing over money for sex. And I clearly have no issue advancing a non pro or sugarbaby money if I think it is in my advantage to do so and collectibility is reasonably ensured based on a pattern of trust. But I obviously didn't want to make good with the pro even though it was the right thing to do.
Is it because she was a pro? Probably. Would I have done the same to a cl girl? Probably not. Why does that make a difference? Not because I don't respect pros, but maybe because there isn't the personal connection and it is business?
If the situation came up again, I'm sure I'd make good with the pro because it is the right thing to do but I'd probably do it grudgingly. Whereas with a longer term cl relationship I wouldn't think twice about making good. It would be automatic.
I think people are getting hung up on the specific facts. I didn't talk about me stiffing the hooker for any other reason than to bring up what can happen when payment gets disconnected from the act.
I'm the exact type of guy that never shorts anyone, doesn't play games, and is true to my word when dealing financially with these women.
I think what I'm trying to illustrate is the complexity of feelings people have around P4P encounters. Meaning that I have no issue handing over money for sex. And I clearly have no issue advancing a non pro or sugarbaby money if I think it is in my advantage to do so and collectibility is reasonably ensured based on a pattern of trust. But I obviously didn't want to make good with the pro even though it was the right thing to do.
Is it because she was a pro? Probably. Would I have done the same to a cl girl? Probably not. Why does that make a difference? Not because I don't respect pros, but maybe because there isn't the personal connection and it is business?
If the situation came up again, I'm sure I'd make good with the pro because it is the right thing to do but I'd probably do it grudgingly. Whereas with a longer term cl relationship I wouldn't think twice about making good. It would be automatic.
who drives back to a drive through when they are given an extra 20 in change? Or goes back to the store? Or if you made a cash withdrawl at a bank and the teller gives you too much money? If you notice it on the spot, most people would fix it right there, but the longer it takes you to figure it out and the more of a headache it is to make it right diminishes the likelihood. Human nature.
Those are good analogies, but the difference in these cases is that there is a personal connection going on. It isnt strictly business anymore no matter how hard both parties try to keep it that way. Once the 'relationship' gets going the obligation to immediately pay for each and every sex act starts to seem out of place. It becomes more like a situation where you owe a close friend money. Most of the time you pay, but not always and certainly not always immediately.
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I'm trying to delve a little into why that happens. I say it's out of a need to morph things into a GFE and a NP4P one at that. When that happens, the girl might be able to go along with it up to a point, but when it gets beyond some personal limit (each one has different limits) they get spooked and they bail on you.
Ok. I see what you mean. I never intended for these types of relationships to morph, but once I had one morph like that on me, I really liked it. A little dangerous for a married guy to be sure, but when they morph they are very real and the highs are very high (the lows are also very low), so they are not completely stress free for either party.
Girl 1 I had to let go, partially because I could see it getting to much for her. Girl 2 bailed because she couldn't handle it (I'm convinced she was in love with me). Girl 3 was kind of a CL semi-pro (I'm sure that there are some UG members that would know of her) that just liked me more than most of her other "clients" and was far better at compartmentalizing things. There were no "feelings" with her, other than fucking and friendship. I still have no idea why she bailed.
Girl 1 I had to let go, partially because I could see it getting to much for her. Girl 2 bailed because she couldn't handle it (I'm convinced she was in love with me). Girl 3 was kind of a CL semi-pro (I'm sure that there are some UG members that would know of her) that just liked me more than most of her other "clients" and was far better at compartmentalizing things. There were no "feelings" with her, other than fucking and friendship. I still have no idea why she bailed.
Gee, what a surprise that this is the one who 'just happened' to book on you while she was ahead $600. (lol)
I give women credit for being able to size men up faster and more accurately then men can do with women. They just pick up on subtle things better. A pro (any kind) might quickly see you as someone who wants to drift (deliberately or not) into the Zone and will also be the one most likely to both avoid it like the plague and find some way to take advantage of it...but, I'm just rambling now...
I give women credit for being able to size men up faster and more accurately then men can do with women. They just pick up on subtle things better. A pro (any kind) might quickly see you as someone who wants to drift (deliberately or not) into the Zone and will also be the one most likely to both avoid it like the plague and find some way to take advantage of it...but, I'm just rambling now...
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Wrong examples, I think.
I go back no matter how long its been since the point where I find out. Though the few times it has happened it was immediately. The reason why is specific. It totally comes down to the ability to put yourself into someone else's place. Their shoes as it were.
I know, in those scenarios, that it is very likely someone is going to pay and that I have the ability, in those scenarios, to mitigate that potential strife. It is totally in my hands.
The rest is easy. I ask what I would want that person to do in similar circumstances if it were me on the chopping block. Then I act accordingly.
Its doing the fair thing.
I go back no matter how long its been since the point where I find out. Though the few times it has happened it was immediately. The reason why is specific. It totally comes down to the ability to put yourself into someone else's place. Their shoes as it were.
I know, in those scenarios, that it is very likely someone is going to pay and that I have the ability, in those scenarios, to mitigate that potential strife. It is totally in my hands.
The rest is easy. I ask what I would want that person to do in similar circumstances if it were me on the chopping block. Then I act accordingly.
Its doing the fair thing.