Very important....
- Thread starter Ozzy
- Start date
And the reason for even mentioning that was ?
JL asked, and i answered. am i know being questioned over *MY* opinion?
Have I missed somewhere where someone recently stated that "certain very popular brothel" couldn't be busted ?
"nor ever been busted"
Yes! It was written on this board about a month ago (by several) .... but I really didn't even want to go back and find the quotes.
Or was this just another convenient opportunity to take a potshot at her ?
you know me.... give me an opening and i'll take my shot. but that wasn't a shot at julies... that was a shot at her imbecilic followers.
You never seem to miss one
i've been very easy on julie, if you want i have a few cluster bombs in my arsenal that i've yet to fire at her.
shall i discuss in detail what she calls "TWE" (the wife experience) ?
JL asked, and i answered. am i know being questioned over *MY* opinion?
Have I missed somewhere where someone recently stated that "certain very popular brothel" couldn't be busted ?
"nor ever been busted"
Yes! It was written on this board about a month ago (by several) .... but I really didn't even want to go back and find the quotes.
Or was this just another convenient opportunity to take a potshot at her ?
you know me.... give me an opening and i'll take my shot. but that wasn't a shot at julies... that was a shot at her imbecilic followers.
You never seem to miss one
i've been very easy on julie, if you want i have a few cluster bombs in my arsenal that i've yet to fire at her.
shall i discuss in detail what she calls "TWE" (the wife experience) ?
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Littleguy, my point, and it is the point that you *never* address, is that JAG turned from a board which followed the rules it published for members, and was honest with members, to a board which proveably did not and is not.
It is this meta-hypocrisy which trumps all other considerations.
By comparison it matters little whether (1) a sysop in theory or practice could be given freebies and still post honest reviews (2) or whether a sysop is compelled to post as management or is allowed to hide under another handle (3) or whether having folks from the provider side on a board ruins it whether or not they do so in an secret or public way.
These are all secondary hypotheticals...only useful if we didn't already know JAG management violates its own self-stated standards.
IS there any doubt JAG management has supply side entaglements and allows supply side access? NO
IS there any doubt JAG publicly denies doing this? NO
QED JAG management at this very basic level cannot be trusted by its own members.
Littleguy, you seem like a bright guy...I don't understand why you can't see that JAG is obviously and fundamentally corrupt when (1) they have a set of rules that they themselves don't follow, and (2) don't admit to not following, and (3) sanction those that call them on it.
It is a simple and fatal point. Which is perhaps why you prefer to argue lesser details ad infinitum...
It is this meta-hypocrisy which trumps all other considerations.
By comparison it matters little whether (1) a sysop in theory or practice could be given freebies and still post honest reviews (2) or whether a sysop is compelled to post as management or is allowed to hide under another handle (3) or whether having folks from the provider side on a board ruins it whether or not they do so in an secret or public way.
These are all secondary hypotheticals...only useful if we didn't already know JAG management violates its own self-stated standards.
IS there any doubt JAG management has supply side entaglements and allows supply side access? NO
IS there any doubt JAG publicly denies doing this? NO
QED JAG management at this very basic level cannot be trusted by its own members.
Littleguy, you seem like a bright guy...I don't understand why you can't see that JAG is obviously and fundamentally corrupt when (1) they have a set of rules that they themselves don't follow, and (2) don't admit to not following, and (3) sanction those that call them on it.
It is a simple and fatal point. Which is perhaps why you prefer to argue lesser details ad infinitum...
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Re: Thorn and RM
Well, I suppose.
But, and I'll stop beating this long dead horse after this, the problem is you never get to know. So you can't factor it in. You are left to presume he is getting his services the same way you are.
And why he has to lie about it is because he makes it a hallmark of his service, which is paid service, that the information presented within is all on the level. 100% unimpeachable. [like, as exampled by Rufus, a "Consumer Reports" would be]. Except it isn't. The owner has an alledged financial interest in a particular whorehouse AND many of the posters present have deals where they swap reviews on that site, and others, in exchange for services and they don't tell anyone about it.
Frankly, as others have mentioned, I wouldn't give a rat's ass about all of it *IF* they were upfront about it and hadn't tossed good, honest, and REAL [meaning no puffery and high quality contributions] members off their site simply for calling the owner on it.
If the owner had said, "Ok. You got me. I have a percentage of the whorehouse in question and we, though being totally honest about the quality of the girls, etc [benefit of doubt extended here], like to make sure they get mentioned regularly so as to keep them in the consumer's mind.", it would all be good again.
Except, again, he wouldn't be able to sell his site as being the first thing in honest reviews and editorial content, which was/is his selling point.
See?
[Note, and this is IMPORTANT: I say this WITHOUT prejudice. I am not anti-JAG. I am not pro-UG. I am pro people being what they say they are. Period. If only because of self-interest, because knowing they they are 'real' means I can use the information they present. Saving me time and personal resources.
Thorn is an illusion, but the opinions stated are very real. They are my own and sincere. You may not agree, and I'll be the first one to defend your right not to, but never be concerned about their veracity. They are genuine.]
Well, I suppose.
But, and I'll stop beating this long dead horse after this, the problem is you never get to know. So you can't factor it in. You are left to presume he is getting his services the same way you are.
And why he has to lie about it is because he makes it a hallmark of his service, which is paid service, that the information presented within is all on the level. 100% unimpeachable. [like, as exampled by Rufus, a "Consumer Reports" would be]. Except it isn't. The owner has an alledged financial interest in a particular whorehouse AND many of the posters present have deals where they swap reviews on that site, and others, in exchange for services and they don't tell anyone about it.
Frankly, as others have mentioned, I wouldn't give a rat's ass about all of it *IF* they were upfront about it and hadn't tossed good, honest, and REAL [meaning no puffery and high quality contributions] members off their site simply for calling the owner on it.
If the owner had said, "Ok. You got me. I have a percentage of the whorehouse in question and we, though being totally honest about the quality of the girls, etc [benefit of doubt extended here], like to make sure they get mentioned regularly so as to keep them in the consumer's mind.", it would all be good again.
Except, again, he wouldn't be able to sell his site as being the first thing in honest reviews and editorial content, which was/is his selling point.
See?
[Note, and this is IMPORTANT: I say this WITHOUT prejudice. I am not anti-JAG. I am not pro-UG. I am pro people being what they say they are. Period. If only because of self-interest, because knowing they they are 'real' means I can use the information they present. Saving me time and personal resources.
Thorn is an illusion, but the opinions stated are very real. They are my own and sincere. You may not agree, and I'll be the first one to defend your right not to, but never be concerned about their veracity. They are genuine.]
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Re: Re: Re: maybe I'm naive.......
No computer work barter, BF?
Remember, I have eyes in there. They love to chat and tell me everything, so be honest. Cause someone is fibbin'.
Know, BTW, I could give a rat's ass if you get a freebie or take something out in trade. Bless ya. Get all you can get.
Just be upfront about it when you do the review is all.
One thing I will say about Ozzie, he doesn't get many freebies. However, anytime he writes a review based on one, within the first couple of lines of his post is a "disclaimer".
Something to the effect of, "Hey guys, know that I am outright shilling here..." . Then he posts the review. The reader makes up his own mind, but KNOWS UP FRONT that Ozzie is in "shill mode".
To be honest, its one of the reasons some providers come to him with offers. It is because they know that his word is well respected when it comes to provider reviews because he is very upfront about what he got and why he got it.
So, they know that they better give him a great session, if they see him as Ozzy [frankly, like me, he usually never relates to a provider that he is 'Ozzy', and they never have a clue that they have seen the {in}famous one]. But they also know that if they throw 'Ozzy' a freebie, the first thing he is going to say is, 'Hey guys, I got this as a freebie so I have no idea what you are going to get. What I can say is that this is what happened to me, so at the very least we know that she will do this for someone, even if its only me in exchange for this review.'
Check his reviews, you'll see what I am saying is true.
So, see the diff?
No computer work barter, BF?
Remember, I have eyes in there. They love to chat and tell me everything, so be honest. Cause someone is fibbin'.
Know, BTW, I could give a rat's ass if you get a freebie or take something out in trade. Bless ya. Get all you can get.
Just be upfront about it when you do the review is all.
One thing I will say about Ozzie, he doesn't get many freebies. However, anytime he writes a review based on one, within the first couple of lines of his post is a "disclaimer".
Something to the effect of, "Hey guys, know that I am outright shilling here..." . Then he posts the review. The reader makes up his own mind, but KNOWS UP FRONT that Ozzie is in "shill mode".
To be honest, its one of the reasons some providers come to him with offers. It is because they know that his word is well respected when it comes to provider reviews because he is very upfront about what he got and why he got it.
So, they know that they better give him a great session, if they see him as Ozzy [frankly, like me, he usually never relates to a provider that he is 'Ozzy', and they never have a clue that they have seen the {in}famous one]. But they also know that if they throw 'Ozzy' a freebie, the first thing he is going to say is, 'Hey guys, I got this as a freebie so I have no idea what you are going to get. What I can say is that this is what happened to me, so at the very least we know that she will do this for someone, even if its only me in exchange for this review.'
Check his reviews, you'll see what I am saying is true.
So, see the diff?
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I am not computer literate enough to offer to barter. If I did I would've had my own website. My only attempt at making a website consisted of me posting a drawing of a skeleton of a guy who died while waiting to log-on to AOL.
I don't know how to post links to other threads here, or make the letters big like Ozzy does, or post pictures on JAG like you've been trying to do.
I don't know how to post links to other threads here, or make the letters big like Ozzy does, or post pictures on JAG like you've been trying to do.
Originally posted by Flounder
Yes
On the road again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm going back to Jersey, to Jersey, To Jersey,
I'm going back to Jersey,
Yo, I don't think so.
Yes
On the road again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Thorn
Oy vey.
[shaking head]
Oy vey.
[shaking head]
I'm going back to Jersey, to Jersey, To Jersey,
I'm going back to Jersey,
Yo, I don't think so.
Cooler heads will prevail
Ozzy,
I just got back from the weekend and I am glad to see you calmed down and showed restraint in this matter. (even though you say you we never going to, I would understand how frustrated and irate you could get from such a thing, God forbid it happens to anyone of us.) I will add that I fear you were a victum of incompetence and not malice (TC excluded) when your name was not deleted right away. (Not that it makes it right or make you feel less angry)
You are right that I wish to refrain from the battles. First of all, the bad blood started before I even found these sites. Secondly, none of it affects me directly as most of it pertains to houses in NY which I doubt I'll ever visit. (which is not to say it doesnt affect anybody else) I just wanted to take the discourse of both places (UG and JAG) to a higher level of where it used to be. However, I have come to the realization that there is too much of a schism and to try to bring both sides together is a foolish venture. Perhaps someday in the future this will be all in the past, but for now, the wounds still appear fresh (and festering.)
Ozzy,
I just got back from the weekend and I am glad to see you calmed down and showed restraint in this matter. (even though you say you we never going to, I would understand how frustrated and irate you could get from such a thing, God forbid it happens to anyone of us.) I will add that I fear you were a victum of incompetence and not malice (TC excluded) when your name was not deleted right away. (Not that it makes it right or make you feel less angry)
You are right that I wish to refrain from the battles. First of all, the bad blood started before I even found these sites. Secondly, none of it affects me directly as most of it pertains to houses in NY which I doubt I'll ever visit. (which is not to say it doesnt affect anybody else) I just wanted to take the discourse of both places (UG and JAG) to a higher level of where it used to be. However, I have come to the realization that there is too much of a schism and to try to bring both sides together is a foolish venture. Perhaps someday in the future this will be all in the past, but for now, the wounds still appear fresh (and festering.)
JK...
i agree with you and the fact that your a very level headed guy and that i've never had any words with you (or hombre for example) shows that it's not a jag vs UG or jagsters vs Ozzy thing with me. it's a trouble maker vs Ozzy thing, always was, always will be. That’s what evil Oz is all about. Even before you came to the boards and it spilled into a april/julie ug/jag war it was the LI whore wars with alyssa and company.... and tank was in the middle of that one as well. does anyone who attended the LI G2G remember tank uttering those infamous words..."alyssa is headed over here with a bunch of hells angels to kick Ozzy's, brenda's and dawns asses" i know carl m remembers. he went out and walked around the parking lot half the night looking for signs of AY and her hells angels. This was a day or two after Alyssa made her threat towards dawn right here on UG. Of course viagra vic was a nicer guy than than Ozzy… I never claimed he wasn’t. I already explained what Ozzy was about… being the house thug! Because the only way to defeat a bully or a bunch of them is to step up to the biggest one in the bunch and kick his fucking ass. As I said.. Ozzy isn’t here to win popularity contests, I tried leaving once or twice and low keying it… but then this jag/april/julies crap started and I had to dust off old Ozzy and fight the good fight again. Maybe this time I can lock Oz up for good. With this trend of name changes going around maybe now is a good time to bury Ozzy and all these wars. I tried to offer an olive branch to tank, but he smacked it out of my hand.
and i think this all could be solved and rather easily... if the mods over at jag and the mod here keep the attacks off the boards. a good start would be removing the "april watch" and "ozzy watch" threads as would be removing the "ghost of jag" threads here. and stop with this heaven shit because what ever aprils knows about her... julies did also. what ever they're doing at april they already did at julie a thousand times already. for christ sakes, she worked for julie for almost a year but Julie knew nothing of heavens many issues? C’mon.. what is she that stupid? her pimp is julies ex, yet she doesn’t know about him. they write this garbage that april is endangering her clients, she's pimping ******** girls, shes pimping drug addicts ect... and in the same sentence they praise julie for being this fucking paragon among madams. Oh, julie would never do what aprils doing, she'd never endanger her clients, she'd never pimp an ******** girl.... blah, blah, blah.... julie is a fucking angel and april is the lowest life form, we know..we’ve read it a thousand times here and on jag. I never claimed april was a saint, but she tries to run as honest and as clean a business as one possibly can considering the business she’s in. thats why those "april watch" threads should come down.... cause they look fucking stupid and they make jag look even more biased towards julies than all the fucking RUMORS about jag and julies being partners put together. they say UG is biased towards april and that slinky and or I are partners... yet slinky has never deleted a single rumor or innuendo posted on this board about april. the same can't be said about jag/julies. and the mcdonalds of sex comment and eventual banishment of it's author is an example.
and littleguy....... hot4chicks was most likely banned for his opinions about julies. if you don't remember or choose not to thats fine. but lets not change history and call him a liar or accuse him of spreading false rumors. i was one person who read every post H4C wrote, the guy was one of jags most unique posters. he posted about a part of this business that very few did or do...... "the semi pro girls" he talked about going to places like the "oakroom" and other hang outs and pick-up joints where you were never 100% certain hitting a home run, but the chase and thrill of hitting a homer was far more exciting than visiting a typical working girl. i think he also may have been one of many who also questioned jags membership fee’s and or the costs of running jag... irregardless none of that was sufficient grounds for banning him. same could be said for slinky as that was the reason he and I believe “Sir F” were banned.
this shit could all be stopped, it's just not in any of our hands. if the various board op's choose to start weeding out the troublesome sources and deleting their lies and innuendo than this would go away faster than alyssa did. if jag or ug don't want to disclose their rumored partnerships than fine.. but they can keep their mutual boards free of the wars if they so choose. and just so it's clear... a negative review is not an act of war, nor is calling a particular girl fat or ugly or lacking in service..... but the accusations that mopar and tank are throwing around most certainly are, and that’s the crap that has to stop.
i agree with you and the fact that your a very level headed guy and that i've never had any words with you (or hombre for example) shows that it's not a jag vs UG or jagsters vs Ozzy thing with me. it's a trouble maker vs Ozzy thing, always was, always will be. That’s what evil Oz is all about. Even before you came to the boards and it spilled into a april/julie ug/jag war it was the LI whore wars with alyssa and company.... and tank was in the middle of that one as well. does anyone who attended the LI G2G remember tank uttering those infamous words..."alyssa is headed over here with a bunch of hells angels to kick Ozzy's, brenda's and dawns asses" i know carl m remembers. he went out and walked around the parking lot half the night looking for signs of AY and her hells angels. This was a day or two after Alyssa made her threat towards dawn right here on UG. Of course viagra vic was a nicer guy than than Ozzy… I never claimed he wasn’t. I already explained what Ozzy was about… being the house thug! Because the only way to defeat a bully or a bunch of them is to step up to the biggest one in the bunch and kick his fucking ass. As I said.. Ozzy isn’t here to win popularity contests, I tried leaving once or twice and low keying it… but then this jag/april/julies crap started and I had to dust off old Ozzy and fight the good fight again. Maybe this time I can lock Oz up for good. With this trend of name changes going around maybe now is a good time to bury Ozzy and all these wars. I tried to offer an olive branch to tank, but he smacked it out of my hand.
and i think this all could be solved and rather easily... if the mods over at jag and the mod here keep the attacks off the boards. a good start would be removing the "april watch" and "ozzy watch" threads as would be removing the "ghost of jag" threads here. and stop with this heaven shit because what ever aprils knows about her... julies did also. what ever they're doing at april they already did at julie a thousand times already. for christ sakes, she worked for julie for almost a year but Julie knew nothing of heavens many issues? C’mon.. what is she that stupid? her pimp is julies ex, yet she doesn’t know about him. they write this garbage that april is endangering her clients, she's pimping ******** girls, shes pimping drug addicts ect... and in the same sentence they praise julie for being this fucking paragon among madams. Oh, julie would never do what aprils doing, she'd never endanger her clients, she'd never pimp an ******** girl.... blah, blah, blah.... julie is a fucking angel and april is the lowest life form, we know..we’ve read it a thousand times here and on jag. I never claimed april was a saint, but she tries to run as honest and as clean a business as one possibly can considering the business she’s in. thats why those "april watch" threads should come down.... cause they look fucking stupid and they make jag look even more biased towards julies than all the fucking RUMORS about jag and julies being partners put together. they say UG is biased towards april and that slinky and or I are partners... yet slinky has never deleted a single rumor or innuendo posted on this board about april. the same can't be said about jag/julies. and the mcdonalds of sex comment and eventual banishment of it's author is an example.
and littleguy....... hot4chicks was most likely banned for his opinions about julies. if you don't remember or choose not to thats fine. but lets not change history and call him a liar or accuse him of spreading false rumors. i was one person who read every post H4C wrote, the guy was one of jags most unique posters. he posted about a part of this business that very few did or do...... "the semi pro girls" he talked about going to places like the "oakroom" and other hang outs and pick-up joints where you were never 100% certain hitting a home run, but the chase and thrill of hitting a homer was far more exciting than visiting a typical working girl. i think he also may have been one of many who also questioned jags membership fee’s and or the costs of running jag... irregardless none of that was sufficient grounds for banning him. same could be said for slinky as that was the reason he and I believe “Sir F” were banned.
this shit could all be stopped, it's just not in any of our hands. if the various board op's choose to start weeding out the troublesome sources and deleting their lies and innuendo than this would go away faster than alyssa did. if jag or ug don't want to disclose their rumored partnerships than fine.. but they can keep their mutual boards free of the wars if they so choose. and just so it's clear... a negative review is not an act of war, nor is calling a particular girl fat or ugly or lacking in service..... but the accusations that mopar and tank are throwing around most certainly are, and that’s the crap that has to stop.
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"if jag or ug don't want to disclose their rumored partnerships than fine.. but they can keep their mutual boards free of the wars if they so choose."
Ozzy, we are generally on the same side of this issue, but I think this is EXACTLY wrong.
One of the reasons folks assume this is just a spat among equals, and there is a sort of moral equivalency, is that the debate back and forth on the level of fine detail is so dizzying that nobody can keep it straight. As long as there are these hugely long debates the average reader will assume an "a pox on all their houses!" attitude.
This is why it is so important to make the simple clear statement about what JAG has done that is *different* and *wrong* relative to all other boards.
*JAG management* are the ones who pretend to wear the white hat of consumer advocacy...no supply side ties, no shilling, no providers on the board, etc...while at the same time doing all of the these *and* denying to their members they are.
UG mgmt. has always been upfront about supply side sponsorship and participation, and has never taken any vows of purity. Readers fairly know what to expect.
JAG (and TBD) mgmt. say one thing and do another. Readers think they are in a private space with pro-consumer operators, when in fact the operators are all about supply side perks and favors.
Keeping it simple makes the difference understandable. Wallowing in the details for post after post makes folks give up and assume all boards are the same...but they are not.
JAG, in fact, *should* come clean about its relationships. Until they do that everything they do is based on a lie, and no good can come of it...and the board wars will never end.
Ozzy, we are generally on the same side of this issue, but I think this is EXACTLY wrong.
One of the reasons folks assume this is just a spat among equals, and there is a sort of moral equivalency, is that the debate back and forth on the level of fine detail is so dizzying that nobody can keep it straight. As long as there are these hugely long debates the average reader will assume an "a pox on all their houses!" attitude.
This is why it is so important to make the simple clear statement about what JAG has done that is *different* and *wrong* relative to all other boards.
*JAG management* are the ones who pretend to wear the white hat of consumer advocacy...no supply side ties, no shilling, no providers on the board, etc...while at the same time doing all of the these *and* denying to their members they are.
UG mgmt. has always been upfront about supply side sponsorship and participation, and has never taken any vows of purity. Readers fairly know what to expect.
JAG (and TBD) mgmt. say one thing and do another. Readers think they are in a private space with pro-consumer operators, when in fact the operators are all about supply side perks and favors.
Keeping it simple makes the difference understandable. Wallowing in the details for post after post makes folks give up and assume all boards are the same...but they are not.
JAG, in fact, *should* come clean about its relationships. Until they do that everything they do is based on a lie, and no good can come of it...and the board wars will never end.
rufus...
do you remember the two statements " I did not have sex with that woman" and “I am 100% not guilty”? one guy left his cum stains all over a dress and he still wouldn't admit to it and the other one bled all over brentwood and he wouldn't admit he wasn't really sleeping and/or chipping golf balls.... some people no matter how much evidence presents itself will never come clean.... so why beat a dead horse.
however, maybe... just maybe, they'll wake up and realize what kind of danger they're involving themselves in by being an accessory to some of the heinous crimes that their so-called partners are committing or accused of committing lately (kidnapping for one), and maybe... just maybe they'll decide on their own and very quietly... to cut those ties with said partners. At this point I don’t think all the GOJ or rufus moses posts in the world are gonna make them change their stance any more than a few extra drops of blood or semen would have convinced those other two to fess up to their errs.
There’s enough dead horses lying around here to open the largest fucking glue factory in the world.
and you know what.... besides 12 idiot people who made a racially motivated decision in acquitting one and the lawyers and politicians who protected and kept the other in office..... the consensus of opinion of those who paid any attention to the actual facts, knows what they both did. the same can be said for jag…. So why bother anymore.
do you remember the two statements " I did not have sex with that woman" and “I am 100% not guilty”? one guy left his cum stains all over a dress and he still wouldn't admit to it and the other one bled all over brentwood and he wouldn't admit he wasn't really sleeping and/or chipping golf balls.... some people no matter how much evidence presents itself will never come clean.... so why beat a dead horse.
however, maybe... just maybe, they'll wake up and realize what kind of danger they're involving themselves in by being an accessory to some of the heinous crimes that their so-called partners are committing or accused of committing lately (kidnapping for one), and maybe... just maybe they'll decide on their own and very quietly... to cut those ties with said partners. At this point I don’t think all the GOJ or rufus moses posts in the world are gonna make them change their stance any more than a few extra drops of blood or semen would have convinced those other two to fess up to their errs.
There’s enough dead horses lying around here to open the largest fucking glue factory in the world.
and you know what.... besides 12 idiot people who made a racially motivated decision in acquitting one and the lawyers and politicians who protected and kept the other in office..... the consensus of opinion of those who paid any attention to the actual facts, knows what they both did. the same can be said for jag…. So why bother anymore.
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Ozzy...the point isn't whether JAG will ever confess its sins...I agree that is unlikely...
the point is this...what is the best way to help *the average guy* to understand what each board can and can't be trusted to offer?
Keeping the case against JAG simple is the most helpful thing we can do here.
Let average readers know that JAG wants to take their money on the basis of *false advertising*... Let them know JAG is literally in bed with the supply side while they fake a sort of Consumer Reports advocacy for the average John...
The mountains of he-said/she-said do *more harm than good* because it gives JAG a smokescreen to hide behind...casual readers will assume that there is no way to know which end is up...
But the case against JAG...the case that it lies to and cheats its membership...is simple and devastating. Don't let the needle get lost in a haystack of details!
the point is this...what is the best way to help *the average guy* to understand what each board can and can't be trusted to offer?
Keeping the case against JAG simple is the most helpful thing we can do here.
Let average readers know that JAG wants to take their money on the basis of *false advertising*... Let them know JAG is literally in bed with the supply side while they fake a sort of Consumer Reports advocacy for the average John...
The mountains of he-said/she-said do *more harm than good* because it gives JAG a smokescreen to hide behind...casual readers will assume that there is no way to know which end is up...
But the case against JAG...the case that it lies to and cheats its membership...is simple and devastating. Don't let the needle get lost in a haystack of details!
Ozzy,
I agree with you, (God this will ruin my rep at JAG, if I keep this up). I have already posted that certain threads should come down at JAG. Because at the very least, if we cannot come together and have fruitful discussion then the civility of ignoring each other is a good alternative.
JohnnyK
PS- I know you probably cant help yourself, but can you "retire" the thug personna without taking some final potshots?
PPS- What makes you think I'm levelheaded, I just thought I was a coward?
PPPS- A coward who hides his messages in silly poems.
I agree with you, (God this will ruin my rep at JAG, if I keep this up). I have already posted that certain threads should come down at JAG. Because at the very least, if we cannot come together and have fruitful discussion then the civility of ignoring each other is a good alternative.
JohnnyK
PS- I know you probably cant help yourself, but can you "retire" the thug personna without taking some final potshots?
PPS- What makes you think I'm levelheaded, I just thought I was a coward?
PPPS- A coward who hides his messages in silly poems.
Look, I don't want to be stirring up a Board War, but IF one side is posting a lot of baseless lies and innuendo, and the other is posting the truth, than an agreement that both sides will become silent isn't a diplomatic solution that keeps the peace. It's an outright victory for the liars, having obtained a concession from the people who are telling the truth.
The "truth"?
Sorry JL, I will never know the truth when it comes to the accusations that have flown back and forth at both places. I would daresay that neither "side" is even 70% in the right. Not much "proof" to be had on the internet. But I am not in any closed circle of backchannels and even if I were, how do I trust someone I only know through the internet? What sort of victory is to be won? Maybe a handful of jerks would get some smug satisfaction, but what else would they win? I have yet to see minions of Johns flocking to blindly follow any of the people that have flung shit around. I dont use innuendo and rumor to base my hobbying decisions on. I think one of the biggest problems is that everyone is claiming that they are defending themselves or friends when the flames start, it's almost as as bad as "he started it!" kid fight. Yes I agree that some fights are worth standing your ground to the bitter end, but take a step back and look at what we're all fighting about. Is it worth it to be "right" here (a hobby)? If you can answer yes, then by all means go ahead and let the fireworks begin (it is almost the 4th of July), I'll just take a seat and watch, it's entertaining, but I'll never pretend I'll attain the truth.
Sorry JL, I will never know the truth when it comes to the accusations that have flown back and forth at both places. I would daresay that neither "side" is even 70% in the right. Not much "proof" to be had on the internet. But I am not in any closed circle of backchannels and even if I were, how do I trust someone I only know through the internet? What sort of victory is to be won? Maybe a handful of jerks would get some smug satisfaction, but what else would they win? I have yet to see minions of Johns flocking to blindly follow any of the people that have flung shit around. I dont use innuendo and rumor to base my hobbying decisions on. I think one of the biggest problems is that everyone is claiming that they are defending themselves or friends when the flames start, it's almost as as bad as "he started it!" kid fight. Yes I agree that some fights are worth standing your ground to the bitter end, but take a step back and look at what we're all fighting about. Is it worth it to be "right" here (a hobby)? If you can answer yes, then by all means go ahead and let the fireworks begin (it is almost the 4th of July), I'll just take a seat and watch, it's entertaining, but I'll never pretend I'll attain the truth.
(Although these comments are not directly responsive to any previous post in this thread, I offer them to furnish a reliable floor upon which an intelligent man may base his conduct and judgments:
1. A rigorously applied intellectual honesty that spares neither yourself nor your friends is the only virture that counts. All other virtues, including the capacity for friendship, humor and intelligent discussion, flow from this first virtue and may not exist without it.
2. Whoever would attempt to steer you away from a rigorously applied intellectual honesty in the name of friendship and in the interests of comfort and your own vanity is not your friend.
3. Whoring is only fun and worthwhile to talk about when in the company of men who know in their guts that Comment No's. 1 and 2 are accurate and non-negotiable.)
1. A rigorously applied intellectual honesty that spares neither yourself nor your friends is the only virture that counts. All other virtues, including the capacity for friendship, humor and intelligent discussion, flow from this first virtue and may not exist without it.
2. Whoever would attempt to steer you away from a rigorously applied intellectual honesty in the name of friendship and in the interests of comfort and your own vanity is not your friend.
3. Whoring is only fun and worthwhile to talk about when in the company of men who know in their guts that Comment No's. 1 and 2 are accurate and non-negotiable.)