Instead of calling the Guttmacher pdf bullshit you could have avoided this whole confrontation by simply saying " Yes, I know the law states 24 weeks but within that 24 week period the medical profession has their own set of guidelines for after 12 weeks." One sentence would have eliminated 20 of your posts, I didn't know what you meant until post # 69.
this is why I hate the GOP
- Thread starter Marcus1960
- Start date
Because that would require rational thought which she is incapable of. Instead she attacks them, me and everyone else who reads the law as it is written. Then she says I post hersay. The law is hersay but her discussions with other women, doctors and her uterus aren't. You would think such an important fact that 80% have to have early abortions as a result would show up on a law somewhere.
What is so irritating about your defense is you still completely dismiss the medical ethics and guidelines which means everything. A law makes a procedure permissible but it still has to fall within the realms of medical law and rules which are heavily monitored. I don't know what that doctor's deal was who committed those crimes, maybe be had gambling debts, maybe he was on drugs, maybe he was just crazy but what he did is not standard procedure regarding terminations, he did also prey on women who would not complain, illegal aliens and impoverished. Will this ban stop more like him, highly unlikely, people will find a way to break the law if a motive outweighs the risk. This ban will predominantly hurt legitimate doctors and heartbroken mothers. There are so many rules and guidelines within the medical community especially regarding female reproductive health. I can't even get an Pap Test with a doctor I have known and trusted for over a decade alone, a third party must be present at all times during the procedure. The likelihood of second trimester terminations being done outside the strict medical guidelines is rare, these doctor's didn't spend a fortune and years learning a skill just to throw it away by losing their license, lawsuits or prison. If 88% (not 80%) of all terminations happen in the first trimester it proves I know what the hell I'm talking about. If the second trimester was such an easy thing to obtain please explain why the first trimester stats are so high? It is just common sense to understand second trimester terminations is based on a individual case by case and it must always be a medically necessary, you cannot have a pregnancy going well and just say "I needed more time to think about it" like you and Steve assumed and not get turned away. After 12 weeks they delicate medical situations and I don't know how to penatrate this into your brain.
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Ozzy, you never had an abortion nor are you a OBGYN, why do you find it so difficult that you were not aware of the medical rules and timeline laws regarding the procedure? Medical law isn't supposed to be everyone's buisness, I'm certain there are medical rules and guidelines on reasons why a prostate biopsy is needed that I neither want or need to know about, besides knowing I will never need one I feel it's none of my buisness.
Speaking of prostate biopsies what if there was one sinister impotent Urologist who told men they might have Cancer in order to preformed unnessary prostate biopsies to cut a certain nerve only to make other men permenantly impotent. Would you guys support a ban on all prostate biopsies because of one lunatic doctor or would you find that too extreme? This 24 week ban solely because one lunatic did the unspeakable is just as extreme.
I did many times but my word kept being doubted because you guys are blinded by ideology. I wrote several times you can't just get a termination after 12 weeks without substantial reason over and over again and even stated a personal confession on how I know this medical law andl I was still questioned. This is why women are just done with Republicans, medical innacuries, false asssumtions and fabrications are favored over the AMA and our personal experiences and knowedge from behind the scenes. We are excluded in decisions of our own private health care business because of religious ideology, the women of this country deserve better. This thread proves how you guys want to believe women are frivolous and not compassionate regarding terminations, you don't want to believe the truth or want to know the facts, you are too comfortable making up your own facts no matter how inaccurate they are to suit the profile you made up in your mind about us.
Ozzy, why don't you knock someone up, tell her to stay pregnant until the 14th week then have her try and get an abortion only using the reason I changed my mind and see what happens. My proof is that 88% of the terminating population gets the procedure within 12 weeks. You have to be one of the most ignorant paranoid people alive to continuing doubting after knowing that staggeringly high number and reading a first hand account from a person who had the fucking procedure concurring the medical law is 12 weeks without needing a reason. Google it yourself, call or write the AMA, I'm not going to grovel to your stupidity by having to prove what is so ridiculously obviously fact.
88% of women terminate in the first trimester = only time where you don't have substainal reason. Seriously, what is wrong with you?? Do you have any independent abilty to come up with your own reasonable conclusion based on significant evidence or doesn't everything has to have to be spelled our word for word.
Btw, Narcotics are not illegal, all pharmacies can legally sell them with a script, there is no law "banning" it from any citizen but you absoulutely need a legitimate medical reason to get a script legally, the same applies to just about everything medical in various degrees. In fact there is no lawmakers are trying to ban anything medical as long as there is a sufficent diagnosis and guidelines are followed except terminations.
Do you understand what ban means? It means under any circumstance it is illegal to allow and whoever does it will be arrested and imprisoned no matter if they had just cause. Narcotics are not banned although they are hard to obtain without cause and if you possess them without a script or a medical doctor gives a script without cause there will be trouble. It's a perfect analogy to describe the strict guidelines of medical system even if it is legally allowed by law. I'm really surprised you are so medically illiterate.
88% of women terminate in the first trimester = only time where you don't have substainal reason. Seriously, what is wrong with you?? Do you have any independent abilty to come up with your own reasonable conclusion based on significant evidence or doesn't everything has to have to be spelled our word for word.
Btw, Narcotics are not illegal, all pharmacies can legally sell them with a script, there is no law "banning" it from any citizen but you absoulutely need a legitimate medical reason to get a script legally, the same applies to just about everything medical in various degrees. In fact there is no lawmakers are trying to ban anything medical as long as there is a sufficent diagnosis and guidelines are followed except terminations.
Do you understand what ban means? It means under any circumstance it is illegal to allow and whoever does it will be arrested and imprisoned no matter if they had just cause. Narcotics are not banned although they are hard to obtain without cause and if you possess them without a script or a medical doctor gives a script without cause there will be trouble. It's a perfect analogy to describe the strict guidelines of medical system even if it is legally allowed by law. I'm really surprised you are so medically illiterate.
88% first trimester, enough reason for any rational person to accept. Only 10% are in second trimester terminations because 2% are for the third and most serious cases. If women are so frivolous and irresponsible as you believe and could easily get a second trimester termination for any old reason that number would be much higher then 10% don't you think. My head hurts from all the face palms your posts are making me do, I have no words to describe how stubborn you are to still question this. If I didn't know something and saw those statistics and heard a first hand account concurring I would just use my brain and come up with my own rational conclusion without demanding to be convinced even further. I have no reason to fabricate this, it's not even something I have thought about in ages until I saw the strange misinformation from you and Steve. I was surprised to find sexually active men who do not know about 12 week rule. Go and find the link yourself, you know how to do a search, I told you I'm not groveling to this silliness.
Not only is there not a shred of a mention of a 12 week limit but.....
In the first two paragraphs of your link it says this...
Second trimester surgical abortion is performed for elective abortion, miscarriage management and for pregnancy termination due to fetal anomalies and maternal health conditions.
During the second trimester, 15 to 23 weeks after your last menstrual period, abortions are typically performed over a two-day period but don't require an overnight stay in the hospital. These procedures are known as dilation and evacuation (D&E).
The fact your own link lists "elective abortions" separate from fetal anomalies, maternal health and other reasons dealing with late miscarriages means...YOU'RE FUCKING WRONG.
In the first two paragraphs of your link it says this...
Second trimester surgical abortion is performed for elective abortion, miscarriage management and for pregnancy termination due to fetal anomalies and maternal health conditions.
During the second trimester, 15 to 23 weeks after your last menstrual period, abortions are typically performed over a two-day period but don't require an overnight stay in the hospital. These procedures are known as dilation and evacuation (D&E).
The fact your own link lists "elective abortions" separate from fetal anomalies, maternal health and other reasons dealing with late miscarriages means...YOU'RE FUCKING WRONG.
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Idiot... all this means is that 88% of women seeking an abortion do so early in the pregnancy than later. Obviously the longer you wait the more chances of complications. If you found out you were pregnant and knew for whatever reason that you wanted an abortion would YOU wait until the second trimester or get it done as soon, and as conscience free and when it's as safe as possible.
And I'm not looking for a link to a law that doesn't exist. I fucking looked enough and couldn't find one. You obviously did to if that link (which prove my point more than yours) was the best you could do. It's YOUR burden of proof..... fucking prove it already or shut the fuck up. Look at this fucking argument... I've posted the laws and you want us to take your word. And you don't see why I call you a fucking idiot?
And I'm not looking for a link to a law that doesn't exist. I fucking looked enough and couldn't find one. You obviously did to if that link (which prove my point more than yours) was the best you could do. It's YOUR burden of proof..... fucking prove it already or shut the fuck up. Look at this fucking argument... I've posted the laws and you want us to take your word. And you don't see why I call you a fucking idiot?
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Ozzy, I'm sick of your intimating name calling, you are just like the thug mentality that doesn't know barely enough about the issue but feels they have rights to dictate what should and should not be. There is an ethical, financial and access ability problem if any women wait past the first trimester. You will not find first trimester site that lists reasons why women seek termination, it's just where and how much but with the second trimester every site lists reasons that vary from emotional, mental to abnormaties and health issues. There's my burden of proof besides the statitics, why list reasons when they do not for the first trimester. This whole discussion was Steve's valid question where is the the line in the sand is drawn and I responded to the best of my knowledge, 12 weeks then there's a problem. I found several medical and social sites regarding second trimester terminations, all have lists of reasons why women wait unlike first trimester. It is far more invasive, expensive and emotionally and physically painful procedure, more difficult to find a provider and yes up to the physicians may refuse at times if the woman or girl doesn't qualify, it is the cross over line and there must be reason, most are abnormalities or dangers to the woman but not all. There are some women with deeply emotional problems like denial or suicide risk, some have been sexually abused and live in fear, many times it's the mother's boyfriend and the adolescent girl is in fear of her disappointing her mother or being thrown out. These young girls go into denial to the point of temporary psychosis. There is another phenomenon of delusion with adolescent girls that the boy that got them pregnant will magically fall in love with them. I told Steve anyone who waits to the second trimester other then the wanted ones gone wrong has much bigger problems then being fickle. The initial post by the two of you that it should be long enough to decided was dismissive to the complex nature of going past 12 weeks. Nobody want it to happen but it does occur for a small percentage of the terminating population and all have some sort of issue, mental, emotional, severe financial, dramatic life change like spouse dying and of cause not wanting a child that will suffer or die herself. You paint this black and white constraint when it's probably the most complex issue of humankind. 88-90 % of women handle the situation in a timely manner of 12 weeks with much care and consideration but we have to be respectful to those who have deeper problems and don't make the first trimester cut off because they are mentally and emotionally troubled or found out bad news they couldn't have known sooner.
This is why you're an idiot....
from your own link)
"Second trimester surgical abortion is performed for elective abortion, miscarriage management and for pregnancy termination due to fetal anomalies and maternal health conditions."
I might be a thug but... you're fucking wrong, you're fucking wrong, you're fucking wrong, etc.
from your own link)
"Second trimester surgical abortion is performed for elective abortion, miscarriage management and for pregnancy termination due to fetal anomalies and maternal health conditions."
I might be a thug but... you're fucking wrong, you're fucking wrong, you're fucking wrong, etc.
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Ozzy, allterminations at any stage are "elective", we went over this how many times now. No woman can be forced to have one, it's always her choice that makes it elective, every woman has the choice to stay pregnant against advise. If a pregnant woman is unconscience from an accident and fetus is unsavable then it's the surgeons makes the call other then this senerio it's always elective, elective, elective, I can repeat myself too. it's just a word that means consent must be given. Find me one first trimester site that gives a list of reasons, you will not find one I guarantee. The facts are still on my side that your theory that women who wait past 12 weeks are just stewing it over is way off, they all have substainal reason whether emotionally unstable or physical and it's nothing like getting a first trimester which is hard enough to cope with. There is a line in the sand, 12 weeks then the stakes are raised, it's not a decision problem, it's always far more serious. I only joined in because I can't stand how some of you think about matters that are not and have never been any of your buisness and the misinformation being tossed around about Rhonda you could never understand. You are not pro-choice of you agree on any ban, there is no middle ground. You either trust women to do the right thing or you don't. 88% is a very high number to doubt most are doing the right thing.
Btw... just to show I'm no chauvinist woman hating scumbag who wants to own anyones uterus and run women back to the bloody wire hangers....
I'ma gonna spark one up tonight for (D) Texas State Sen Wendy Davis.... who schooled Rick Perry and pals who tried pass a ridiculous abortion bill late last night. You go girl.
As for the fucking loon here who doesn't know when to put up or shut up ....
You're fucking wrong, you're fucking wrong, you're fucking wrong, you're fucking wrong, you're fucking wrong, you're fucking wrong, you're fucking wrong, you're fucking wrong, etc.
I'ma gonna spark one up tonight for (D) Texas State Sen Wendy Davis.... who schooled Rick Perry and pals who tried pass a ridiculous abortion bill late last night. You go girl.
As for the fucking loon here who doesn't know when to put up or shut up ....
You're fucking wrong, you're fucking wrong, you're fucking wrong, you're fucking wrong, you're fucking wrong, you're fucking wrong, you're fucking wrong, you're fucking wrong, etc.
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Oh, that's big of you, want some kind of reward? At least Steve and Stu admit they wholeheartedly do not think women should have rights and be be responsible for their own health care choices, you are just only supportive when it suits your argument. Elective is a nice way of saying we will help because your 12 years old and your stepfather forced himself and impregnated you. Do you think the site should go into ever gory detail of what dreadful thing happened that causes these girls to go into such denial they waited past the 12 week mark? It's mostly scared emotionally troubled adolescents girls other then the fetal abnormality group. You are trying to dismiss trauma, denial, delusion isn't a mental health problem. Do you need a list of every horrible senerio I can personally think of to cause a girl/woman to wait until the second trimester?
Btw, my stalker is a huge fan, wrote me twice today rambling some insanity about you but I guess me being nuts and always wrong I just imagined it. I forwarded them to the powers the be just in case you incorrect and I'm not living in an alternate reality.
Btw, my stalker is a huge fan, wrote me twice today rambling some insanity about you but I guess me being nuts and always wrong I just imagined it. I forwarded them to the powers the be just in case you incorrect and I'm not living in an alternate reality.
Wow ... I never said that Emily. Ditto what Stu said. The only real problem I have is when perfectly healthy women with perfectly healthy babies want to abort for no other reason than they just don't want to have a baby and that it is after something like 20 weeks. That is a little too close to murder for my liking. Does it happen often? Probably not very ... but just because it is rare doesn't mean it should be legal in the name of women health issues ... because that is just BS.
Furthermore I prefer people to pay for their own stuff. I shouldn't have to pay for other people's stuff. I can deal with a real safety net. That's not what we have now. Now the poor have it a little too cushy for my liking.
Furthermore I prefer people to pay for their own stuff. I shouldn't have to pay for other people's stuff. I can deal with a real safety net. That's not what we have now. Now the poor have it a little too cushy for my liking.