this is why I hate the GOP

[Marcus1960]

because they are held hostage by the fucking religious, anti-abortion extremists. Didn't Mr. Boehner once say his focus is going to be like a laser on "jobs, jobs, jobs"? Yeah, right.

June 12, 2013
House Advances Bill to Limit Abortion After 22 Weeks of Pregnancy

By JEREMY W. PETERS

WASHINGTON — Legislation that would outlaw nearly all abortions after the 22nd week of pregnancy was put on a fast track to the House floor on Wednesday after being approved in committee on a party-line vote.....

Post a link to this article in a subsequent post and I will paste into the first posting --Duckman

 

[Ozzy]

22 weeks is not the first trimester. 22 weeks is well into the fifth month, after the central nervous system has started to develop and because of medical improvements more babies are being born viable at 5 months. And 5 months is long enough to know you're pregnant and long enough to decide if you want it or not or discover most birth defects. I don't have a problem with a 22 week cut off and I'm as pro-choice as there is.

 

[pantysniffer]

22 weeks is not the first trimester. 22 weeks is well into the fifth month, after the central nervous system has started to develop and because of medical improvements more babies are being born viable at 5 months. And 5 months is long enough to know you're pregnant and long enough to decide if you want it or not or discover most birth defects. I don't have a problem with a 22 week cut off and I'm as pro-choice as there is.

Only a loser discusses politics on a whore board .

 

[LISteve]

22 weeks is also plenty long enough to realize you were raped and have an abortion. I also believe that this is plenty of time to test the baby to make sure development is normal.

I would make sure that there are laws in there to protect the health of the mother.

This is why I have problems with the left. You know that if an abortion is botched and it came out whole ... and alive ... that they are legally allowed to let it die? They should do everything to save that life. I think that's about as inhumane as it gets. I am pro-choice to a limit. I think too many on the left want no limits. Why not just make the cutoff 1 year AFTER birth? That way you guys can get rid of those pesky infants that cry a little too much?

 

[fairemily]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6424425

http://womensenews.org/story/the-na...ortion-term-puzzles-many-doctors#.UbuV0Yl5mc0

 

[fairemily]

http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/media/fact-sheets/abortion-bans-at-20-weeks.pdf

 

[LISteve]

I am impressed by your restraint Emily. There should always be room so that babies aren't born with horrendous problems and serious risks to the mother. I would like to think that is what most people want. I imagine you would like to go on a rant about how the right is evil and actually wants mothers to die, women to have health issues and for babies to be born handicapped, in pain and disfigured.

I don't think that is the case. However, I don't think the left wants perfectly fine babies aborted at 35 weeks either. It is a point at where you draw the line. I don't know if I ever heard of the left mentioning ANY Line. You can correct me if I am wrong.

Question for you Emily .... If a woman and her baby are perfectly healthy but the mother wants an abortion at 22 weeks .... should she be allowed?

 

[fairemily]

Question for you Emily .... If a woman and her baby are perfectly healthy but the mother wants an abortion at 22 weeks .... should she be allowed?

It's against the law, you cannot terminate a healthy fetus or be in good health pregnant once fetal receptors develop. I'm not into human suffering, I leave that to the conservatives. I also don't consider a fetus a baby until it can sustain it's own life without support, a heartbeat does not define a person, if it did we would have to end the organ donor program. We rip out healthy beating hearts from people on life support to give to another without any dispute. No one can completely confirm a fetus will survive to birth, there is no such thing as a safe pregnancy, something can go wrong at and stage, that's why a fetus that cannot sustain life on it's own should never have personhood status. In fact no human entity that cannot self sustain life should have personhood status, our brain's ability to survive without artificial or organic support defines us as a person, that's what I believe.

 

[fairemily]

Steve, I accidentally left out an important word during redrafting. It is the development of fetal "pain" receptors, that's the defining point of no return. You wrote you never heard a pro-choice defining time line well that's it. Once a healthy entity can feel pain it's off limits, that's always been the common sense law until personhood and heartbeat bills. In termination of a fetus with incurable abnormalities the mother and defective fetus are under anesthesia, it's done with great care with the main objective of saving the woman's life and ability to conceive again, the fetus is never removed alive, there is no such medical term as partial birth terminations.

 

[Ozzy]

But there has to be a line in the sand cause as in that most recent case with an abortion doctor found guilty of murder proves...... you can not always leave it to the doctor to decide. So the only logical answer is to take the youngest fetus to survive and make that the line. I would guess it might even be less than 20 weeks cause I know there have been 5 month babies who survived.

 

[fairemily]

But there has to be a line in the sand cause as in that most recent case with an abortion doctor found guilty of murder proves...... you can not always leave it to the doctor to decide. So the only logical answer is to take the youngest fetus to survive and make that the line. I would guess it might even be less than 20 weeks cause I know there have been 5 month babies who survived.

I can safely assume I'm the only one here that actually had an abortion and know and have always known there has been a definete line in the sand. This is being discussed after decades of being our private buisness because of new Republican meddling. It's just like birth control, all those who have first hand experience are wondering what the fuck is the sudden interest in our private affairs, all women know the law and it's never been up to 22 weeks, at least not in this state.The only legal terminations after the always defined 12 week cut off time are because a irresistible defectin a wanted pregnancy was detected. If we are going to drafting laws because one savage crossed the line without cause I like to remind everyone there was a school shooting 6 months ago and still no new gun laws so I'm not buying the whole "we have to stop murder of the innocent" outrage. There have been other crimes committed by people with medical licenses like serial killer Harold Shipman, it doesn't mean they are breaking the law, in fact it's very rare. It's obscene that Republicans care more about fetuses that will not survive over post born healthy children riddled with bullets at their school desks. I wouldn't want to live being born after 5 months with a serious defect, if it were me or my child I would choose termination rather then a short miserable life outside the womb. If you are not wealthy we have the worst medical system, no maternity leave, no wage increase in decades and not one anti choice lawmaker who adopts healthy children forget about special needs unwanted children. I don't believe for one second Republicans care, they are appeasing their religious backers with medically inaccurate ideological beliefs. I have no problem with a person having religuous beliefs but when those beliefs based on medical inaccuracies and fiction become law of the land overriding science and logic then we might as well admit we live in a theological ruled nation no better then Iran.

 

[fairemily]

If the same logic that all late term necessary terminations must be banned because one doctor who had the skill broke the law were applied to guns we would have an assault rifle ban after the first mass murder using assualt rifles. The hypocrisy from the right astonishes me, one incident is exploited to push extreme and violating laws because it suits their twisted ideology. If we banned all medical procedures because one doctor who specialized in that procedure broke the law we would have no medical procedures allowed at all. With some research I'm sure anyone can find an incident of criminal wrong doing that resulted in death by at least one licensed medical practitioner in every single surgical speciality. The idea we stop trusting and regulate all because of one bad apple defies logic. If this insane law is passed it will kill woman, widow men and ophan children, that is a certainty.

 

[LISteve]

OK Emily ... make it one day before the legal limit is up .... so 21weeks and 6 days. You have now been pregnant now for a while but you have had a change of heart and you go to the abortion clinic. Do you go ahead? You are healthy and in no danger healthwise. The fetus is perfectly healthy too.

My point is ... you miss one period ... 2? ..... 3? At what point should there be a consideration that what you are doing is morally wrong? 22 weeks to me seems TOO long.

 

[fairemily]

OK Emily ... make it one day before the legal limit is up .... so 21weeks and 6 days. You have now been pregnant now for a while but you have had a change of heart and you go to the abortion clinic. Do you go ahead? You are healthy and in no danger healthwise. The fetus is perfectly healthy too.

My point is ... you miss one period ... 2? ..... 3? At what point should there be a consideration that what you are doing is morally wrong? 22 weeks to me seems TOO long.

I still don't get it, this is like the birth control, reproductive disease misinformation nonsense. Women around this country are wondering how these medically illiterate morons get their information. Your whole arguement is based is lies made up by fanatics, you don't understand how the process works. The time limit for elective termination is 12 weeks, always has been. You have never been pregnant so you can't possibly understand no person unless they are mentally challenged or in complete mental denial from trauma like rape can stay pregnant 22 weeks and not know, its not just a missed period, I knew I was before that happened, it's not a state you would want to endure unless you want to have a baby. Morally if the fetus is brain dead or will never survive outside the womb there is no time limit for evacuation if it's going to save the woman's life and reduce the suffering for both parties. It's far more humane to remove under anesthesia in utero then letting it be naturally which is not only dangerous but the defected fetus suffers for the few hours outside the womb and it's far more heartbreaking for the parents of a wanted pregnancy to have to watch thier child suffer like that. There is no legally way to change your mind with a healthy fetus after 12 weeks, there must be something seriously wrong and you need more then one consulation. This is just another way to humilate women, we shouldn't have to explain medical science to these gray faced religious fanatics who think they know better then specialist with decades of experience. I can't seem to penetrate logic, fact and reason into any of you because you are dead set in believing inaccuracies made up by right wing zealots. I posted links by medical specialist and you still don't seem to get it. These doctors who save women's lives by have to live under armed security because of religious fanatics terrorist like Operation Rescue, they it's no different then the Islamic fanatics who also kill based on dogmatic ideology over fact.

 

[Marcus1960]

another brilliant Republican.

Rep. Burgess: Abortions Should Be Banned Because Male Fetuses Masturbate
Perry Stein 3:07 PM EDT, Tuesday June 18, 2013

Rep. Michael Burgess (R-TX) said in a late-Monday night House Rules Committee hearing on a bill prohibiting abortions after 20 weeks that the procedure should be banned because even at as early as 15 weeks a male fetus "may have their hand between their legs" and "feel pleasure."

"This is a subject that I do know something about,” said Burgess, a former OB/GYN, during the House hearing first reported by RH Reality Check. "There is no question in my mind that a baby at 20 weeks after conception can feel pain. The fact of the matter is, I argue with the chairman because I thought the date was far too late. We should be setting this at 15 weeks, 16 weeks."

"Watch a sonogram of a 15-week baby, and they have movements that are purposeful,” Burgess continued. “They stroke their face. If they’re a male baby, they may have their hand between their legs. If they feel pleasure, why is it so hard to think that they could feel pain?"

This bill is scheduled for a House vote Tuesday afternoon.

 

[fairemily]

Here is another scientific link regarding when a fetus feels pain. It really depends who you believe, being an MD doesn't mean anything unless the majority of your peers concer with your finding and the majority claims fetal pain starts at 26 weeks. Once again in cases of incurable defect the terminated fetus is anesthetized and feels nothing. Steve commented about dismembered which only occurs after termination in utero in order to preserve the reproductive system. If we are going to have qualms regarding dismembering the dead we have to stop organ transplants. I'm baffled anti-choice have no problem with the harvesting and mutilation of brain dead people but are concerned how a dead fetus is handled needs to be dismembered to be removed from a woman's body. It's all unpleasant but hypocritical to pick and choose which one you have a problem with, surgery is ugly buisness. We are not certain that brain dead donors do not feel pain or will ever wake up, we don't want to know because people want those organs to extend their own lives. Philosophically I don't see the difference between a brainless human entity and a brain dead human entity, they both do not deserve personhood status over a conscious self sustaining person. Where do we draw the line when a person begins and ends is a bigger question.


http://www.newscientist.com/mobile/...ing-new-law-claims-a-fetus-can-feel-pain.html

 

[fairemily]

another brilliant Republican.

Rep. Burgess: Abortions Should Be Banned Because Male Fetuses Masturbate
Perry Stein 3:07 PM EDT, Tuesday June 18, 2013

Rep. Michael Burgess (R-TX) said in a late-Monday night House Rules Committee hearing on a bill prohibiting abortions after 20 weeks that the procedure should be banned because even at as early as 15 weeks a male fetus "may have their hand between their legs" and "feel pleasure."

"This is a subject that I do know something about,” said Burgess, a former OB/GYN, during the House hearing first reported by RH Reality Check. "There is no question in my mind that a baby at 20 weeks after conception can feel pain. The fact of the matter is, I argue with the chairman because I thought the date was far too late. We should be setting this at 15 weeks, 16 weeks."

"Watch a sonogram of a 15-week baby, and they have movements that are purposeful,” Burgess continued. “They stroke their face. If they’re a male baby, they may have their hand between their legs. If they feel pleasure, why is it so hard to think that they could feel pain?"

This bill is scheduled for a House vote Tuesday afternoon.

This guy needs to get a grip on himself (I could not resist). This is just more confirmation of my theory that conservatives are repressed sexual deviants, they have this amazing ability to twist everything into smut.

 

[Ozzy]

Just because some fucking morons are looking for wacky reasons doesn't mean they don't have a point in shortening the deadline for an elective abortion.

There have been so many cases and adjustments since RvW (1973) that I'm not quite sure what the exact laws are but this is what I found...

Planned Parenthood v. Casey (1992).

The trimester system was tossed in favor of "viability". At the time of Roe v Wade legal elective abortions could be done up to 28 weeks which was later shortened to 22 weeks until the case I cited above came into effect. Leaving "viability" up to a doctors discretion. I think this is way too vague and it exposes women to butchers like the one I mentioned earlier. Since I couldn't find anything that cited "12 weeks", it appears the current line is 22 weeks with the doctors input. The line can probably be moved to 20 or less weeks while still allowing the doctor their input and giving anyone who wants an elective abortion REASONABLE time to make their decision. If it's only 12 weeks as Emily claims then there should be no discussion.

 

[LISteve]

Agreed Ozzie. If the law is 12 weeks like Emily says then there should be no discussion.

However ... Emily ... you never answered my question. Let's say that the law is passed and it is carved into concrete at 22 weeks. At 21 weeks ... you change your mind and don't want a baby. Both you and the baby are perfectly healthy and in no way in danger. Do you personally feel fine with having an abortion.

It's a simple question. Remove all questions of legality if you want. I want to know how you feel about it morally.

 

[Ozzy]

Casey was the last decision I found regarding mention of legal cut off (22 weeks). Every decision seems to have multiple facets and new rules plus there were a few court decisions that worked in favor of conservatives during the W era. I didn't read thru them all so maybe there was a shortening to 12 weeks in one of those. But then why discuss 22 weeks now.