The Downfall of the Underground

Slinky Bender

Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator
#1
#1
The Manhattan "Underground Scene" has definitvely gone way downhill after a very brief "hot period". Elswhere is cyberspace, a discussion started when someone blamed the promoters. While out of respect for the privacy of that venue I won't repost the discussion, it started with a guy basically blaming the promoters, and asking "Is underground still underground? Does anybody still care about a perv on a budget? In the meantime I resort to cheaper alternatives til some the inflationary tendencies get under control."

I don't have any compunctions about reposting my response, though:

I actually think there's something slighlty different at work here. I
think what might be more of the problem than the "promoter end" is the "dancer end", but it's a double edged sword.

Not all that long ago, the underground was the undeground, blow jobs were $30 or $40 lap and wall dances were $5, etc.

But everyone wanted more "mainstream" (read whatever racial, etc. connotations you want into that) girls, so they were recruited from the mainstream clubs. At the same time, mainstream guys were recruited, who were used to paying $200 to $300 for an hour of FS at some incall spot (as N2N would call tehm "The UG guys"). The result was that not only did these girls ask and get substantially more money, but even the decent looking "underground girls" who had previously been "happy" (let's just accept that euphamism - whether it was really "happy" or just "accepting of" or whatever) were now asking the same prices (I think one potential "milestone" was when the Japanese girls started getting $80 for blowjobs).

So, you used to be able to go "someplace" spend $40 or $50 for
entrance and unlimitted VIP usage, get a bunch of laps and 3 trips to the VIP for "various activities" for another $130 to $150, and feel like you had a wild night for under $200. Now, I think by the time you're in the door, get a drink, 2 laps and a VIP, you're at the same amount (i.e. around $200 total). As a result, I think possibly a bunch of guys are wondering why they paid $200 for some mediocre sex for 15 minutes in a semi-public room, when they could have gone to some incall, gotten a private room, a shower, much better sex (2 pops, etc). So, I think that's what's stopping a bunch of the guys (in addition, I think that a bunch of guys are seeing the same girls for "private sessions" for not much more than the same girls want for 15 minutes in the VIP).

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think it's the promoters and
*their* pricing schemes which have altered the market, but the rapid rise in the dancer's prices which have squeezed their own "gold egg laying gooses" a little too tightly. Personally, I've been finding tha the VFM quotient (value for money) of the sexual services provided by MANY of the girls to be lacking (i.e. they think that for $80 they should give a covered, jackhammer BJ, and theguy should be happy if it lasts 10 minutes). Compare this to incall places where the girls get $90 to $150 of the fee, and spend a complete hour of service with some "real" artificial affection thrown in.

Of course, this is a generalization, and there are girls who spend
much longer in the VIP without complaining, etc (they certainly have with me), but I think those girls are becoming the minority. I also think that this is a "vicious cycle", and you see a lot of girls
either making a few bucks and bolting the spot for the night, or
siting in the dressing room and complaining about the guys. I know that i've heard a bunch of girls who really haven't been around the "more upscale" places too long at all complaining that they wouldnt go to any events in Brooklyn anymore because all the "broke asses" wanted BJs for $40. I think if they aren't careful, they may end up with only places like that left to go to.

And I really don't think there are enough "higher end guys" who will both go to "underground spots" and "VIP" at those spots to "go around" and populate all the events. I think the promoters are working harder and harder, and the girls are getting either smarter or lazier, depending on how you look at it, and which girls we're talking about.
 
P

popeye

#2
#2
Slink,

In support of your point I’d present the popularity of the, now infamous and busted, Bridgeport clubs like Teddies. Although I am not an expert in this market sector of the hobby, I did notice the sudden rush by adherents of the underground scene to new territories in New Jersey and Connecticut. Which led me to believe there was an issue with pricing. Originally I assumed the expense of an evening in the underground scene was comparable to the expenditure typically encountered during a visit to a CT club. Only to discover, this was not the case at all. If anything it was close to double the cost for less consistent service. In my opinion, the majority of guys who do this are not looking to get bankrupt. Nor do they feel like getting fleeced.

I actually thought the reason for the higher overall cost of the underground scene was all the middlemen involved from the promoters to the girl’s handlers. But based on your post I can see a new dynamic at work. This is a very simple and clear example of the forces of classic commerce at work. The influx of a new economic demographic willing to spend at a higher level inexorably led to inflated prices overall. This is a very interesting analysis of a case study with a very solid rationalization to explain a phenomenon.

If only they recognized this market for what it is they may have preserved it for quite some time, and possibly draw many new adherents. Simply put, it is a discount market that operates under low profit margins, with a high volume of sales and built on building a repeat customer base. Just like Teddies and the other Jersey clubs. Where the owners can make money from selling drinks and the like. Also I found the entry fee for these places quite ridiculously on the high side.

Good post,

Regards,

Pop
 
N

nycstripclubs

#3
#3
Slinky,

I've got 3 words for you.

FORTY DOLLAR ANAL.

You definitely CAN have the wild evening you speak of if you hit the outer borough spots like 8-ball (now closed) and 243 (when they offer VIP).

I don't think the price structure has really changed much in the Manhattan parties from a year ago It's pretty much always been 40-60 & 70-100 with a very few exceptions. MANY will ASK for more but will often accept far less than they ask for. You usta be able to NEGOTIATE 30 & 50 in outer borough and uptown spots and probably still can. That kinda pricing in Manhattan was unusual. $5 laps are pretty much gone, but you can get a $5 lap if you tip $1 at a time. $5 wall dances and $10 laps are commonplace. Again, many will ASK for $20 but will accept $10. The mainstream girls were ALWAYS at the upper end of the spectrum. The dancers also size up the customer's wallet and price accordingly.

Of course, supply and demand are ALWAYS very much in effect, and pricing is also subject to the dancers specific need such as having some bill due. There are plenty of bargains to be had for those who take the time to survey the situation and pick the appropriate target.

Because the dancers can set their own pricing, it's encumbant upon the customer to get the best deal they can from a given dancer. The Underground Parties are not a prix fixe menu like a traditional whore house. If hondling doesn't appeal to you, you'll end up paying more.

As far as costs go $20 door, $20 VIP, two / three drinks $20 with plenty of free gropage especially if you give one of those drinks to the dancer, two $10 laps, and $50 head or $70 F/S over the course of a coupla hours still leaves you change from the $200-$300 you'd spend for an hour with a regular provider. If you just want to get the "job" done, you can get by for $100 or so. It's not as cheap as a 1F or Episode, but you get WAY more selection and variety to pick from.

The underground scene isn't for everybody. It's HIGHLY variable from one day to the next because the girls go where they THINK they can make money. So you NEVER know which specific dancer will be in attendance at any given spot. Guys who don't like the uncertainty, won't be happy with this scene. But guys who are willing to try to play the game, pushing the envelope and go with the flow really enjoy it.

Peace,
Valjean
 
Slinky Bender

Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator
#4
#4
I have to disagree with you on this. From what I'm seeing, things really have SUBSTANTIALLY changed in the last year to yea and a half, in that if you really wanted to find $40 BJ's at almost any place, including the Manahattan "regular" spots, you could, and could rather easily. Your "$40 anal" is exactly my point. That's something which was available, and without all that much effort to boot, not all that long ago at "the most mainstream of the underground" not too long ago, while recently a girl actually tol me "NO" to a $40 HJ!!!!!!!!!!! (that's actually the biggest thing "behind" my initial post about this subject).

Of course not only is my "evidence" annecdotal, but it's based on a limitted sample size. Nonetheless, I really, really do see a "hardening" of the price structure behind MANY/MOST (if not close to ALL) of the girls at these events. It used to be just about a given that MANY of the girls would give BJ's for $40 and could possibly be bargained down to $30. Now, the majority will not only ask for $60, but tell guys to drop dead at $40.

I've also noticed that a surprising number seem to think that they should be getting $100 for FS, and that this amount should only be good for 15 minutes. Again, this is as opposed to that "$40 anal".
 
A

azzure

Vin Diesel
#5
#5
One of my black pimp friends invited me to one of those far-flung underground clubs. This one was in Freeport LI in a place that doubles as a recording studio.

When I walked in it was like - what the fuck is a white dude doin here. Anyway the point is that its just like the asian places. Damn discrimination. They see a .white dude and jack up the prices accordingly. $40 anal may have been available there but I'd have been hard-presed to get it. Even if they will otherwise do it for that, they get resentful if they think you can pay more and don't.
 
N

nycstripclubs

#7
#7
Azzure, you have no idea how many times I've found myself in the exact same situation. That's when the "GAME" is at it's best. They KNOW you have money and they're gonna try to get as much of it outa you as they can. It's up to YOU to get the most mileage you can. I just LOVE playing that game, maybe even more than the outcome.

As far as their getting "resentful", that's just part of the game. Don't forget, there's almost always someone in the room willing to do whatever it is you want for what you're willing to pay (within reason). If there are enough girls, it's a HIGHLY competitive environment. I've had girls decline my offer and an hour later come back and ask me if I was still interested at MY price. If you've got game, that's when to tell them you want to pay LESS!
 
Slinky Bender

Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator
#8
#8
While having a conversation at one of these clubs with a girl who has been in the business a long time, I had sort of a ..... well, epiphany might be too dramatic, but.........


There may be some intergenerational clash which is causing an issue: as discussed before, the current gerneation of 20-somethings feels that BJ's aren't sex. The prior generation fealt that HJ's weren't sex. As a result, you've got a very large segment of the male population that feels like their "limit" on "activities" is HJ's. There's tons of guys who used to go to places like the Harmony or Tina's, etc. and get laps and HJ's, or even go to AMP's or other massage places and get HJ's, and not feel to guilty about "cheating". Similarly, there were LOTS of girls who didn't think of themselves as prostitutes if they limitted themselves to giving HJ's.

Two things happened recently which make me bring this up. The first was to a large extent what made me think of starting this thread in the first place: I was at a club, and a girl who was giving ne the hard sell for a VIP said "no" to an offer of $40 for HJ. I couldn't fucking believe it. But also, last time I was at another club, I was in the VIP fucking on of my current faves, and this guy "of a certain age" comes in with a popular girl and sits down next to us. She goes to give him a BJ, and he's like "No, I just want a HJ" (or something like that). She gets obviously flustered, says something like "Well, it's $60 anyway", and tries to give him a BJ anyway, which he resists........ I didn't pay much attention (hey, I was busy), but my impression was it ended pretty quickly after that with both parties frustrated.

Back to the conversation at the start of this post.... So we're talking, and I mention the "No" to $40 HJ incident (it was at that same club), and she couldn't believe it either. I then went on to ask about how many times girls were giving HJ's currently at the club, and we both sort of agreed that it didn't appear to be too common. My guess is that during the heyday of the club, there were 10 given a day, and now was probably more like 10 a month. Also, a lot of the older "regular" customers were the guys who were used to the "old style" Harmony way of doing things, and that those guys were the most notably absent from the scene lately.

Add to this the fact that there are all sorts of independant girls, who not only are only offering HJ's, but at significantly higher prices, leads me to belive that part of the problem is that the "purveyors" of services in this market have started to miss the mark in regards to what the consumer end (or at least a significant segment of the market) wants service wise.

Another example of this is that just so many of these grils have no clue how to give a HJ period. Again, i think this is somewhat generational: they never had to give HJ's on "real dates". 20 years ago, girls gave thier BF's HJ's at teh end of a date in lieu of sex, because HJ's weren't sex. Now, girls give their BF's BJ's at the end of dates since BJ's aren't sex. I almost get the feeling that with a lot of the current crop of dancers, when a guy asks for a HJ, they are thinking "A HJ? Why would anyone want a HJ?".

The other point is that even for guys who would do BJ's, there are many who have stated that they would prefer an uncovered HJ to a covered BJ, and the majority of these girls only do covered BJ's.

Sorry for the disjointedness of this post.

PS I'd be curious as to the response a club would get if they were a "HJ only" place, and got girls who were very good at doing that, and didn't press guys for any more. I'd be curious to see if a lot of the faces who used to show up 2-3 times a week at these places, but really have not seen around much anymore, would start becoming "regulars" to the scene again.
 
N

nycstripclubs

#9
#9
Originally posted by slinkybender
There may be some intergenerational clash which is causing an issue: as discussed before, the current gerneation of 20-somethings feels that BJ's aren't sex.
Click to expand...
Thank Bill Clinton for bringing that definition to MY generation.
 
Slinky Bender

Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator
#10
#10
Originally posted by nycstripclubs
Thank Bill Clinton for bringing that definition to MY generation.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure you're kidding, but I really do think the impact of the difference in thinking about "where the line is" has been grossly underestimated.
 
U

un4given

#19
#19
Originally posted by nycstripclubs
Now YOU've gotta be kidding.

It's hard enough to keep straight when and if they're even open.
Click to expand...

I KNOW!!! Thats why when you mentioned that as a viable alternative to the downfall of the underground, I thought you knew something I didn't.

Oh well, at least we'll always have Big D!
 
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