The Downfall of the Underground
- Thread starter Slinky Bender
- Start date
I discovered the scene on my own, almost accidentally (befriended a girl whose sister worked at Cookoo's Nest in Brooklyn). UG is the first and only useful board that I had discovered on the web, and it was much later.
And as for me personally, HJ or high milage laps were NEVER the goal of underground clubbing. Even at Cookoos where for as little as 2 bucks I could get a wank at the stage, I always savored saving my large bills for the end of the night, when a lucky dancer would send me to heaven in the back room, and toward the end of CN's existence -- in the ladies room.
I dont know about you all, but I like the state of the underground today, except for the pricing that is shooting through the roof.
And as for me personally, HJ or high milage laps were NEVER the goal of underground clubbing. Even at Cookoos where for as little as 2 bucks I could get a wank at the stage, I always savored saving my large bills for the end of the night, when a lucky dancer would send me to heaven in the back room, and toward the end of CN's existence -- in the ladies room.
I dont know about you all, but I like the state of the underground today, except for the pricing that is shooting through the roof.
You're timing's off. I'd say that many of the "internet strip cliub guys" discovered the underground scene like Tina's, Medallius, 243, etc. in late 1998 or 1999 when the Harmony shut down. I discovered the hardcore UG scene sometime late in 1999 when I hit my first Big D event. More "internet strip club guys" followed with the ASS-Con field trips in late 2000 -2001. The rest is history.
I think the problem is more that after 1998 or so, a hands-on lap dancing place like the Harmony would have to be run as an underground establishment. I suspect the thinking goes like this: "If I'm going to run an underground club/events and risk getting busted, I may as well allow extras to take place." If you're going to be treated by LE as if you are allowing extras regardless of whether or not you do, you might as well let it happen and make the extra money.
There is also the issue of who is willing to work in an underground place. The girls who don't want to offer F/S don't seem to want to work events with the girls who do. There were some exceptions at ASSCON but not too many.
I'd really like to see a place come back where the stock in trade is a good lap dance, and the extras are either discreet or off-premises.
There is also the issue of who is willing to work in an underground place. The girls who don't want to offer F/S don't seem to want to work events with the girls who do. There were some exceptions at ASSCON but not too many.
I'd really like to see a place come back where the stock in trade is a good lap dance, and the extras are either discreet or off-premises.
I think you're talking out of both sides: if you're talking about the "mongers" then talk about them, if you're talking about the "internet stripclub guys" talk about them, but don't use the aspects of each when it's convenient and pretend it's all the same discussion.
Almost none of the internet mongers EVER disovered Tina's etc. much less back before 2000. Almost none of them ever went to 243, or even have any idea of what or where it was. If we put up a poll here on UG as to what Medalllius was, I'd bet less than 1% would have any clue. I would say that the overwhelming, vast majority of that group had their very first "UG experience" at F-Stop/Studio-5 or "ASSCon" (using the term as what they used it for, not the original "Pub Crawl" that it started out as).
But even more importantly (but with no proof to offer) those guys who did find those venues aren't the one's we're talking about here who it seems we "all" agree wanted a "quick fix solution". That is to say, the guys who we know who were "internet stripclub guys" who found various UG events were generally getting laps and HJs (and sometimes a little more) and not looking for "quickie spots with lapdances" (and thus by induction we "all' agree that they aren't/weren't the root cause of the problem).
Almost none of the internet mongers EVER disovered Tina's etc. much less back before 2000. Almost none of them ever went to 243, or even have any idea of what or where it was. If we put up a poll here on UG as to what Medalllius was, I'd bet less than 1% would have any clue. I would say that the overwhelming, vast majority of that group had their very first "UG experience" at F-Stop/Studio-5 or "ASSCon" (using the term as what they used it for, not the original "Pub Crawl" that it started out as).
But even more importantly (but with no proof to offer) those guys who did find those venues aren't the one's we're talking about here who it seems we "all" agree wanted a "quick fix solution". That is to say, the guys who we know who were "internet stripclub guys" who found various UG events were generally getting laps and HJs (and sometimes a little more) and not looking for "quickie spots with lapdances" (and thus by induction we "all' agree that they aren't/weren't the root cause of the problem).
I can not fault your logic, but talking about what actually did happen instead of what might have happened, it's not the way I directly saw things unfold. Especially since the operators almost to a one didn't get any part of the $ for the acts. They made the same $ whether the patron was getting a HJ or greek, and generally speaking the police have not treated HJ places the same as FS places (see various Spa discusions).
I was just adjusting your timeline, not trying to make any other point.
You're correct that F-Stop / Studio 5 was the first venue discovered by the "mongers". However, that establishment, loosely based on Tina's, was less of quickie spot than say Eposode. The Nowbar ASS-Cons had a SIGNIFICANT percentage of girls who NEVER provided more than HJ's (and sometimes even less) despite the influx of "mongers". This was probably due to the open door / no pimp / no # limit dancer policy of that venue.
The daily UG spots, F-Stop, DSS, etc. only allowed dancers who did extras to work there not because of pressure of internet "mongers", but to maximize the VIP room income stream. Because of the limited number of slots for dancers working on a given night, they selected dancers who moved people through the VIP. The profit motive was more important than any undue internet "monger" pressure.
F-Stop/S5 eventually degenerated into a venue that became a true quickie joint, eventually run by pimps, because of management issues and not due to pressure from "mongers". DSS/TS stayed true to their vision for their brief lifespans never having been concieved as HJ spots, again because of the VIP room income stream. They did however have more of an underground party feel especially when the number of dancers and customers reached critical mass. More intermittant parties like Big D's, Carlito's etc were not really influenced by internet "mongers' at all because they were such a small percentage of their cllientele.
You're correct that F-Stop / Studio 5 was the first venue discovered by the "mongers". However, that establishment, loosely based on Tina's, was less of quickie spot than say Eposode. The Nowbar ASS-Cons had a SIGNIFICANT percentage of girls who NEVER provided more than HJ's (and sometimes even less) despite the influx of "mongers". This was probably due to the open door / no pimp / no # limit dancer policy of that venue.
The daily UG spots, F-Stop, DSS, etc. only allowed dancers who did extras to work there not because of pressure of internet "mongers", but to maximize the VIP room income stream. Because of the limited number of slots for dancers working on a given night, they selected dancers who moved people through the VIP. The profit motive was more important than any undue internet "monger" pressure.
F-Stop/S5 eventually degenerated into a venue that became a true quickie joint, eventually run by pimps, because of management issues and not due to pressure from "mongers". DSS/TS stayed true to their vision for their brief lifespans never having been concieved as HJ spots, again because of the VIP room income stream. They did however have more of an underground party feel especially when the number of dancers and customers reached critical mass. More intermittant parties like Big D's, Carlito's etc were not really influenced by internet "mongers' at all because they were such a small percentage of their cllientele.
I don't know if my history with these places is typical, but here it is:
Strip club guy. Found the Harmony in the early 80's and that was pretty much where I went until it got closed down. Good deal, good variety, good mileage, etc. Shortly thereafter (I think the Harmony got closed down in 1998), I found out about Studio 90 (the then-current incarnation of Tina's, which has moved around and changed its name a lot over the years). It was on 29th St. and at that point was fairly Harmony-like. Although you could get extras with most of the girls there, it was mostly a lap dance place. I forget where on the internet I heard about it. It was there for a year or two and then that spot got shut down. I found my way onto the nystripclubs Yahoo group and found out where it had reopened (as Su Casa or some such thing). In light of this thread, it's an interesting place because it slowly turned from a lap-dance place into a more typical modern UG spot -- i.e.
It moved around more, and the management got a lot more security conscious (not that it seemed to help them much).
The emphasis turned away from lap dances and more to the extras.
The selection of girls got smaller and there was less variety.
Eventually I gave up on following them around every time they would get closed...but then I heard about ASSCON and went there off and on until that closed. I've been fairly inactive with the UG clubs since then.
Strip club guy. Found the Harmony in the early 80's and that was pretty much where I went until it got closed down. Good deal, good variety, good mileage, etc. Shortly thereafter (I think the Harmony got closed down in 1998), I found out about Studio 90 (the then-current incarnation of Tina's, which has moved around and changed its name a lot over the years). It was on 29th St. and at that point was fairly Harmony-like. Although you could get extras with most of the girls there, it was mostly a lap dance place. I forget where on the internet I heard about it. It was there for a year or two and then that spot got shut down. I found my way onto the nystripclubs Yahoo group and found out where it had reopened (as Su Casa or some such thing). In light of this thread, it's an interesting place because it slowly turned from a lap-dance place into a more typical modern UG spot -- i.e.
It moved around more, and the management got a lot more security conscious (not that it seemed to help them much).
The emphasis turned away from lap dances and more to the extras.
The selection of girls got smaller and there was less variety.
Eventually I gave up on following them around every time they would get closed...but then I heard about ASSCON and went there off and on until that closed. I've been fairly inactive with the UG clubs since then.
I also went to F/Stop & S5 while that was around, and while they were promoted (as was ASSCON) as lap-dance events/clubs, they really weren't.
Let me say a few things about why I don't really like the current UG scene, since it seems to be the minority opinion:
There is not a lot of variety, at least, not compared with mainstream clubs or the Harmony (or S90 when it was more of a lap-dance place). The UG attracts about 90% WOC. I'm not saying this as a racist sentiment -- I like to see WOC as part of the variety, but miss everyone else. One of the great things about the Harmony is you could find just about any type you were interested in -- age, race, build, etc.
As Slinky pointed out above, the typical UG dancer does not really 'get' the idea of a lap dance as its own thing, or why anyone would want a HJ instead of a BJ or FS. The lap dance is seen strictly as a lead-in to the VIP room services. The dancers see guys who just want lap dances as time wasters for them. I think a lot of guys, not just me, enjoy a good hands-on lap dance. There is also the 'Bill Clinton factor' for those of us with an SO. That is, I can get a lap dance and not feel like I'm cheating, but not a BJ or FS. This matters to some of us. There's also the point that if I were going to pay for a BJ or FS, I'd like to have it be under more private, less rushed circumstances.
Most of the UG dancers have terrible customer service habits. They are high-pressure, and treat you like there is something wrong with you if you are not there for extras. One thing I hated at ASSCON is that I could not just hang out and have a drink without being 'wannadanced' every two seconds. I like a place where I can sit back a bit and I make the first move when I see someone I like the looks of.
Nothing is open during the day or even early evening. When they try to open early, the dancers don't show up until late anyway so it's not worth going early. I remember how dead the Sunday ASSCONs always were. The Wed one opened at 6, but not much was really happening until 10 or so -- and that's still early by UG standards. It's a lot easier to cover for afternoon or early evening activities than to explain why you're out at 3AM. Dear Underground: Please give us married guys a break here.
Let me say a few things about why I don't really like the current UG scene, since it seems to be the minority opinion:
There is not a lot of variety, at least, not compared with mainstream clubs or the Harmony (or S90 when it was more of a lap-dance place). The UG attracts about 90% WOC. I'm not saying this as a racist sentiment -- I like to see WOC as part of the variety, but miss everyone else. One of the great things about the Harmony is you could find just about any type you were interested in -- age, race, build, etc.
As Slinky pointed out above, the typical UG dancer does not really 'get' the idea of a lap dance as its own thing, or why anyone would want a HJ instead of a BJ or FS. The lap dance is seen strictly as a lead-in to the VIP room services. The dancers see guys who just want lap dances as time wasters for them. I think a lot of guys, not just me, enjoy a good hands-on lap dance. There is also the 'Bill Clinton factor' for those of us with an SO. That is, I can get a lap dance and not feel like I'm cheating, but not a BJ or FS. This matters to some of us. There's also the point that if I were going to pay for a BJ or FS, I'd like to have it be under more private, less rushed circumstances.
Most of the UG dancers have terrible customer service habits. They are high-pressure, and treat you like there is something wrong with you if you are not there for extras. One thing I hated at ASSCON is that I could not just hang out and have a drink without being 'wannadanced' every two seconds. I like a place where I can sit back a bit and I make the first move when I see someone I like the looks of.
Nothing is open during the day or even early evening. When they try to open early, the dancers don't show up until late anyway so it's not worth going early. I remember how dead the Sunday ASSCONs always were. The Wed one opened at 6, but not much was really happening until 10 or so -- and that's still early by UG standards. It's a lot easier to cover for afternoon or early evening activities than to explain why you're out at 3AM. Dear Underground: Please give us married guys a break here.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you have a very interesting misimpression.
My understanding is -- and again, someone should correct this if it isn't right -- that S90 was more a sex place than a lap dance place until the Harmony closed. At which point a lot of Harmony dancers, and hence Harmony customers, moved there. I believe (again, someone should correct me if I'm wrong) that that was the first time S90 ever had a substantial contingent of women who didn't do extras.
Of course, "extras" need not include FS. It may be that S90 was mainly hand jobs/blow jobs prior to the Harmony influx of 1998. But in any event, I think that the particular case of S90 is sort of the opposite of the syndrome Slinkybender is talking about.
Again: if I'm right.
My understanding is -- and again, someone should correct this if it isn't right -- that S90 was more a sex place than a lap dance place until the Harmony closed. At which point a lot of Harmony dancers, and hence Harmony customers, moved there. I believe (again, someone should correct me if I'm wrong) that that was the first time S90 ever had a substantial contingent of women who didn't do extras.
Of course, "extras" need not include FS. It may be that S90 was mainly hand jobs/blow jobs prior to the Harmony influx of 1998. But in any event, I think that the particular case of S90 is sort of the opposite of the syndrome Slinkybender is talking about.
Again: if I'm right.
(One piece of evidence: before 1998, you would read about the various iterations of S90 frequently on places like WSG, but only rarely on the ASSC usenet newsgroup. Whereas the Harmony was discussed on ASSC all the time -- but on places like WSG, much less frequently than the various iterations of S90.)
But that's not saying much. Everyplace is less of a uickie place than Episode, because Episode has always totally been a quickie place.
That says something about some of the girls who went there (and I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about the percentage of girls who were there on any given night who's limit was HJ or less; which I think on any given night .... on average .... was 10% or less). But it doesn't really talk to the spot..... if you look at the money which was made there, what percentage was made off of HJ's (not laps, which were performed as a lead in to VIP by almost every dancer). I think that was a number approaching zero (especially since HJ during a LD outside of the VIP was off limits).
Unfortunately, I have no way of duscussiing this without throwing in parts of an arguement which people wouldn't want me posting here.
I disagree. I spent a considerable amount of time there, and therefore I think I'm better suited to judge than those making their judgemet on third hand info. What happened was that the clientelle shifted away from guys who were treating the place like they used to treat Tinas when the dancers saw they could make more money by spending less time with the customers when the mongers came in and showed "how they roll". I can't find it now, but anyone who read Bill Furniture's account of his first trip to F-Stop would know exactly what I'm talking about. These guys "crowded out" the "more traditional" Tinas type customers. Management was absentee even if physically present, so I'm not so sure about unconsious people making conscious decisions
.
That says something about some of the girls who went there (and I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about the percentage of girls who were there on any given night who's limit was HJ or less; which I think on any given night .... on average .... was 10% or less). But it doesn't really talk to the spot..... if you look at the money which was made there, what percentage was made off of HJ's (not laps, which were performed as a lead in to VIP by almost every dancer). I think that was a number approaching zero (especially since HJ during a LD outside of the VIP was off limits).
Unfortunately, I have no way of duscussiing this without throwing in parts of an arguement which people wouldn't want me posting here.
I disagree. I spent a considerable amount of time there, and therefore I think I'm better suited to judge than those making their judgemet on third hand info. What happened was that the clientelle shifted away from guys who were treating the place like they used to treat Tinas when the dancers saw they could make more money by spending less time with the customers when the mongers came in and showed "how they roll". I can't find it now, but anyone who read Bill Furniture's account of his first trip to F-Stop would know exactly what I'm talking about. These guys "crowded out" the "more traditional" Tinas type customers. Management was absentee even if physically present, so I'm not so sure about unconsious people making conscious decisions
.
See... that's the point I've been trying to make... and it's a lot like and awful lot of other stuff you see on PMBS...... I don't think you're in the minority opinion when it comes to custmoers and potential customers of these spots. I only think you're in the minority opinon when it comes to vocal internet posters on PMBs. To digress, look at a lot of issues on PMBs - take CBJ vs BBJ for example. I think the majority of girls do CBJ rather than BBBJ, and I think the majority of cusomers get, accept andamny even prefer CBJ. But you'd never know that from reading PMBs. In that same way you'd think that operations which wee $200+ per hour Rub and Tug places could never be successful.... but that would be a totally incorrect conclusion. Back on topic: that's why I'm saying that I think "the internet guys" ruined the scene..... I think that they influenced the scene to mold it to what they thought should happen at these places, and i think they got what they want, but I don't think this was what the majority of the patrons of the scene wanted, and in addition I think that the true patrons got crowded out as a result, and I think in the end the scene suffered (died?) as a result.
Think about this: evey time someone mentions "The Harmony" half the guys in town get teary eyed about it. While many "miss" the other places, it's not nearly the same type of reaction.
Think about this: evey time someone mentions "The Harmony" half the guys in town get teary eyed about it. While many "miss" the other places, it's not nearly the same type of reaction.