Poll: Discriminatory practices of providers
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Originally posted by justlooking
One real-world thing this discussion has convinced me of is that prostitution should remain illegal.
One real-world thing this discussion has convinced me of is that prostitution should remain illegal.
Re: CAT
JL -- I just saw this, or I would have responded sooner.
Thank you. And yes, I do care... If I didn't care, or didn't respect you, what you say wouldn't matter to me...
Originally posted by justlooking
I was in an amazingly terrible mood last night and unduly harsh.
I apologize (if you care).
I was in an amazingly terrible mood last night and unduly harsh.
I apologize (if you care).
Thank you. And yes, I do care... If I didn't care, or didn't respect you, what you say wouldn't matter to me...
Originally posted by rufus4aday
From what I've seen of the situation in the Netherlands, for example, *everyone* is better off in this regard ... the cops can concentrate on "real crimes".
From what I've seen of the situation in the Netherlands, for example, *everyone* is better off in this regard ... the cops can concentrate on "real crimes".
-Ww
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: STOCK REPLIES and maybe one new one
The picking a hot black girl over an ugly asian girl is pretty obvious to me, I guess I misunderstood your last post.
Anyway, I won't be going to ass con tonight, but I have to say that when I was there I saw one very decent looking asian girl working. I think her name was Kiki or Momo or something to that extent. She seemed to be very busy all night long.
Ass con is definetely a dream come true for men who like black women and don't want to spend a lot of money to have a good time. I've seen plenty of very nice looking WOC there, as well as at the Big D parties.
It's kind of funny. I've often wondered why these attractive black women aren't working at one of the upscale clubs in the city. They could do very well while doing very less, if you know what I mean. The white-collar stock broker lawyer crowd at the more upscale places drop serious money on the pretty black girls. I'm sure the same is true of a pretty white girl working at a big D event. It's the what you don't get everyday draw, I guess. Sometimes when I was working and not doing well I would watch the skanky girls raking it in and wonder why. So now I try to apply the same principle to make myself feel better.
Originally posted by slinkybender
To some extent, that's taken care of in the "model". In other words, once you've ranked all 300 women according to how hot you think they are, then de facto the ranking tells you how you're making your decision (i.e. based on looks or based on racial preferences). But I don't see where I said I'd pick "the hottest black girl over the semi-hot asian girl if your tastes run to asian women". I made an easier statement to deend, which was that I'd pick the hottest Black woman over an Asian butt-ugly woman.
But also, let's take this into a more practical space: when I go looking for a prostitute, my budget is not unlimitted. Let's say I'm looking to spend $60 on a blowjob. Now, let's take a look at the universe of prostitutes who will give me that (perhaps, say, at ASS-Con or some similar event?). Now, let's take a look at the attractiveness of that universe, or set of women. In my (not so limiited) experience, that set is going to be comprised of a set of black women ranging from "not so great looking" to "fairly good looking", and perhaps one or two less than good looking white women and zero Asian women. Some guys will, in such situations, forego picking a very nice looking black woman, and go with a skanky white woman who even fairly disgusts them, simply because "they don't do black women". I'll select the best looking black woman, but I'm not going to chalk it up to any altruistic "principle". It's simply because I want to stick my cock into the nicest looking thing I can find.
Of course, the above example translates to other price points/venues. And, as another example, I do go looking for Asian women for those same $60 blowjobs (at AMPs in Chinatown). But if I'm in a given venue, I'm not going to make decisions contrary to my best friend's interests, based solely on a racial basis. (I tell you what, if you want to come to ASS-Con tonite, I'll prove I'm not simply picking Black women there on principle by taking you up to the VIP? How much more sincere can I be than that?).
NB: Of course the above discussion has left out "service" and only focused on looks, just for the sake of the argument. I hope it's obvious that if there's some great looking woman of any race whom I know gives lousy service, I'm not necessarily going to pick her anyway based solely on her looks.
To some extent, that's taken care of in the "model". In other words, once you've ranked all 300 women according to how hot you think they are, then de facto the ranking tells you how you're making your decision (i.e. based on looks or based on racial preferences). But I don't see where I said I'd pick "the hottest black girl over the semi-hot asian girl if your tastes run to asian women". I made an easier statement to deend, which was that I'd pick the hottest Black woman over an Asian butt-ugly woman.
But also, let's take this into a more practical space: when I go looking for a prostitute, my budget is not unlimitted. Let's say I'm looking to spend $60 on a blowjob. Now, let's take a look at the universe of prostitutes who will give me that (perhaps, say, at ASS-Con or some similar event?). Now, let's take a look at the attractiveness of that universe, or set of women. In my (not so limiited) experience, that set is going to be comprised of a set of black women ranging from "not so great looking" to "fairly good looking", and perhaps one or two less than good looking white women and zero Asian women. Some guys will, in such situations, forego picking a very nice looking black woman, and go with a skanky white woman who even fairly disgusts them, simply because "they don't do black women". I'll select the best looking black woman, but I'm not going to chalk it up to any altruistic "principle". It's simply because I want to stick my cock into the nicest looking thing I can find.
Of course, the above example translates to other price points/venues. And, as another example, I do go looking for Asian women for those same $60 blowjobs (at AMPs in Chinatown). But if I'm in a given venue, I'm not going to make decisions contrary to my best friend's interests, based solely on a racial basis. (I tell you what, if you want to come to ASS-Con tonite, I'll prove I'm not simply picking Black women there on principle by taking you up to the VIP? How much more sincere can I be than that?).
NB: Of course the above discussion has left out "service" and only focused on looks, just for the sake of the argument. I hope it's obvious that if there's some great looking woman of any race whom I know gives lousy service, I'm not necessarily going to pick her anyway based solely on her looks.
Anyway, I won't be going to ass con tonight, but I have to say that when I was there I saw one very decent looking asian girl working. I think her name was Kiki or Momo or something to that extent. She seemed to be very busy all night long.
Ass con is definetely a dream come true for men who like black women and don't want to spend a lot of money to have a good time. I've seen plenty of very nice looking WOC there, as well as at the Big D parties.
It's kind of funny. I've often wondered why these attractive black women aren't working at one of the upscale clubs in the city. They could do very well while doing very less, if you know what I mean. The white-collar stock broker lawyer crowd at the more upscale places drop serious money on the pretty black girls. I'm sure the same is true of a pretty white girl working at a big D event. It's the what you don't get everyday draw, I guess. Sometimes when I was working and not doing well I would watch the skanky girls raking it in and wonder why. So now I try to apply the same principle to make myself feel better.
Originally posted by Wwanderer
It would be nice if they would concentrate on pickpockets who will take your wallet at an average rate of about twice per day spent on Amsterdam's streets or public transportation if you are not constantly alert!
-Ww
It would be nice if they would concentrate on pickpockets who will take your wallet at an average rate of about twice per day spent on Amsterdam's streets or public transportation if you are not constantly alert!
-Ww
It's come up before, but it seems to me that underground parties and the like are a much more immediate open question regarding racism and "the hobby".
Is there something immoral about a crowd of white guys at a "party" paying bottom dollar for sexual favors from a crowd of black women? Is there any doubt they are benefiting from racism?
(I've obviously stated the question in an extreme manner. Yes there are a few non-WOC at these events. And yes there are underground parties that are mostly non-white on both sides. And yes white guys benefit from racism in many other non-hobby related ways every day.)
Is there something immoral about a crowd of white guys at a "party" paying bottom dollar for sexual favors from a crowd of black women? Is there any doubt they are benefiting from racism?
(I've obviously stated the question in an extreme manner. Yes there are a few non-WOC at these events. And yes there are underground parties that are mostly non-white on both sides. And yes white guys benefit from racism in many other non-hobby related ways every day.)
Originally posted by rufus4aday
Is there something immoral about a crowd of white guys at a "party" paying bottom dollar for sexual favors from a crowd of black women? Is there any doubt they are benefiting from racism?
Is there something immoral about a crowd of white guys at a "party" paying bottom dollar for sexual favors from a crowd of black women? Is there any doubt they are benefiting from racism?
(you wouldn't say they're held to a different moral standard here, would you?)
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Originally posted by rufus4aday
If there is a good thread already here on that topic posting the URL would be a fine idea. It will make it easier on some poor grad student 150 years from now.
If there is a good thread already here on that topic posting the URL would be a fine idea. It will make it easier on some poor grad student 150 years from now.
-Ww
Re: Have Fun
I hope we include it only via this reference.
-Ww
Originally posted by justlooking
http://utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=15132&highlight=east+village
http://utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=15132&highlight=east+village
-Ww
Originally posted by rufus4aday
It's come up before, but it seems to me that underground parties and the like are a much more immediate open question regarding racism and "the hobby".
Is there something immoral about a crowd of white guys at a "party" paying bottom dollar for sexual favors from a crowd of black women? Is there any doubt they are benefiting from racism?
(I've obviously stated the question in an extreme manner. Yes there are a few non-WOC at these events. And yes there are underground parties that are mostly non-white on both sides. And yes white guys benefit from racism in many other non-hobby related ways every day.)
It's come up before, but it seems to me that underground parties and the like are a much more immediate open question regarding racism and "the hobby".
Is there something immoral about a crowd of white guys at a "party" paying bottom dollar for sexual favors from a crowd of black women? Is there any doubt they are benefiting from racism?
(I've obviously stated the question in an extreme manner. Yes there are a few non-WOC at these events. And yes there are underground parties that are mostly non-white on both sides. And yes white guys benefit from racism in many other non-hobby related ways every day.)
There was a series of posts on CL a while back from a company called, if memory serves, X-Treme Functions, looking for women to work their parties. If you read their posts over the course of a few days, it became apparent that they were getting -- in spite of and after they re-phrased their ads to make it clear that they only wanted women of color, NO WHITE WOMEN NEED APPLY -- many queries from white women. The private parties that they arrange are about, and for, men whose specific and intense interest (insofar as their willingness to spend time and money) is on young, beautiful, black women. Period.
The women who answered those ads, and were deemed by the employer to be right for the gig, agreed to work them for whatever fee they agreed to: one person's definition of "bottom dollar" is "way more than these fuckin' ho's should be getting" in someone else's, but to say that white men who attend those parties and pay the requisite fees for doing so are "benefitting from racism" is simply absurd. All of the men at such a private party may be benefitting from the sexist aspects of the situation, but the women of color who have agreed to work there have done so, at least as far as the public eye can see, under no duress. The post they answered made it abundantly clear that their race is the first and essential requirement of their value to the employer (and his customer's) intentions, so how can it possibly be viewed as an instance of racism? It's nothing more or less than simple capitalism. White (and other colored) men too wimpy or whatever to go out and take the personal risks of meeting black women on their own, commercially or otherwise; pimp/entrepreneur recognizes a market niche by taking out the anxiety factor for those men; does the drudge work of creating a clubby atmosphere where the men can feel safe in each other's company; recruits the type of women desired with great specificity, and probably in larger numbers than necessary because of the likely number of no-shows; not unlike the typical high school dance, once enough bodies show up to make the room feel not cavernous, and enough alcohol is ingested to let the most anxious men forget themselves a bit, some kind of kismet occurs when enough human need, financial need, booze, mood music and the phase of the moon conspire to determine what kind of a night each person had. For one person it's an A-1 BBBJ from a fine sistah who even DFK-ed him, and he decides to let himself think that maybe that's because she actually liked him, a little bit? (Not that he has any illusions, mind you...)
And maybe the tip that guy gave the woman who DFK-ed him, and some minor comment he made, did or didn't make him stand out to her, as she's tucking her money somewhere that's the last place anyone's going to find it if they try to rip her off. Perhaps, amidst a commercial sex party scenario, those two people connected in a DFK for a moment, and they were both rewarded: her, for allowing something about him to permit the kiss in the first place, and the financial display of gratitude that resulted; him, because he felt like he'd gotten something elusive and valuable, a kiss that felt real, more real than any other acts that accompanied it...
However different those two people's needs and perceptions of the evening might be, one thing is certain: they both walked away from that party and into the New York night, as free as they were when they walked into it...
Again, (being me), I am focusing on interaction between individuals, in this case a purely hypothetical one. But if we are going to talk about racism as an issue in commercial sex, IMO, private parties that are clearly designed to meet specific racial predilections should be automatically excluded from the discussion, because it's understood by both sides that that is the purpose of the party in the first place...
(And obviously, if anyone was forced to be there or act in some way against their will, or misled as to what their role in the night's events might be, the issue immediately moves beyond "simple" questions of racism and sexism and into criminal questions of kidnapping, rape, sexual coercion, exploitation and slavery...)
Originally posted by Sexywhore
In a perfect world, a call-girl would service every Tom, Dick & Harry like a sex machine but you guys need to remember to some of us this more than just about sex and money. Some of us enjoy making a difference in that someone's day and can't perform like sex machines on demand.
In a perfect world, a call-girl would service every Tom, Dick & Harry like a sex machine but you guys need to remember to some of us this more than just about sex and money. Some of us enjoy making a difference in that someone's day and can't perform like sex machines on demand.
Well, I'll just speak from experience and then shut up and go read the other thread.
From what I've seen, NYC places with inexpensive sex workers are 90% WOC.
I am not sure that this is any different than WOC (and MOC) populating lower wage positions in other lines of work.
In fact I don't think it is.
From what I've seen, NYC places with inexpensive sex workers are 90% WOC.
I am not sure that this is any different than WOC (and MOC) populating lower wage positions in other lines of work.
In fact I don't think it is.
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Originally posted by rufus4aday
Well, I'll just speak from experience and then shut up and go read the other thread.
From what I've seen, NYC places with inexpensive sex workers are 90% WOC.
I am not sure that this is any different than WOC (and MOC) populating lower wage positions in other lines of work.
In fact I don't think it is.
Well, I'll just speak from experience and then shut up and go read the other thread.
From what I've seen, NYC places with inexpensive sex workers are 90% WOC.
I am not sure that this is any different than WOC (and MOC) populating lower wage positions in other lines of work.
In fact I don't think it is.
But I do think it is a bit different from your question (I think) -- at least insofar as the series of ads I read were concerned, they weren't looking to hire white women at all, even though they were getting plenty of responses from them. It seemed clearly indicated (to my naive eyes, anyway) that they are looking to fulfill a very specific set of conditions for the men willing to pay for them: a wide variety of WOC, available for a price, in a place with the means to accommodate availability, as it were... The women are given access to voluntary pool of potential clients, and the opportunity to work that room however they see fit, to their best advantage...
But my sense, Rufus, is that you see a clustering of WOC in the inexpensive clubs as indicative of something more nefarious? I'm not sure I see it -- if X-Treem is getting an overflow of inquiries from white women, how is it possible that 90% of the women in those clubs are WOC, unless they are making money for the club (i.e., the club's clients want WOC), and who is forcing them to work in those clubs? The sex industry has plenty of venues...
If my understanding is faulty, please correct -- I have no firsthand experience of these events, and it may well be that my earlier post was entirely presumptuous and erroneous, and I have slapped my own hand, several times...
I won't even begin to speculate on the ugly equations of determining the dollar value of race itself in these scenarios, but I would add that if we are now shifting the conversation from the issue of racist screening by providers to economic discrimination against providers on the basis of race, perhaps a new thread would be in order?
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Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
who is forcing them to work in those clubs?
who is forcing them to work in those clubs?
-Ww
PS - In any case, I definitely agree with you that this is far enough off target that it really ought to be discussed elsewhere.
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