Poll: Discriminatory practices of providers

[JackT]

Originally posted by justlooking
1. I've tried to make the point earlier, and Slinkybender DID make it, that the more selective a girl is in general, the more you'd presume that she's turning down customers on individual grounds rather than categorically on account of race.

A more selective girl has just as much of a chance of being just as racist as a non-selective girl. It's quite possible that the selective girl is turning customers down on individual grounds AND because of race.

The only difference I see is that the racist girl who turns customers down on individual grounds has more opportunity to MASK her racism than a similarly racist "take all comers" provider.

 

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by JackT
A more selective girl has just as much of a chance of being just as racist as a non-selective girl.

One might well think that the chance was higher in fact. People who are picky or judgemental or biased or bigoted about one thing or one type of people often are about others too. Anyway, this is basically what Cat is saying.

-Ww

 

[justlooking]

Not that Cat is reading this thread anymore, but . . .

I'm NOT making excuses for strip clubs.

You could just as easily say I'm making excuses for CL girls, since I've been insisting throughout this discussion that they get cut more slack than mass-market prostitutes in terms of selectivity.

And, of course, I still maintain that anyone who's racist is scum.

 

[jseah]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
"More" presents? I resent that, PJ, given how greatly surprised I would be to receive any presents, not to mention my Naughty Gentile status...

oops.....there goes my plan to give you a dreidel teddy bear for the holidays.......

 

[alterego]

The Miracle of Hanukkah

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
not to mention my Naughty Gentile status...

I suspect that shiks-appeal will get you more Hannukah gelt, not less.

æ

 

[Cat_Ballou]

Just when JL thought it was safe...

Originally posted by jseah
oops.....there goes my plan to give you a dreidel teddy bear for the holidays.......

Darlin', I don't discriminate against anyone, and I love presents -- giving them, as well -- I just don't expect to get them... (Over the years, I've noticed that some women seem to be present magnets -- men just fall all over themselves with the gift-wrapped packages for them. Alas, I am not such a woman, LOL...)

I guess, for one thing, I'm just less inclined to cut slack (if that's the appropriate term) to any SW -- regardless of activity -- who works in a structured environment that gives her some guarantee and sense of physical safety (club, brothel, etc.) than I am to the true indie, who works out of her home or a hotel room with no back-up, no one to turn to if a session goes ugly, and no way out. The only other women who are as vulnerable are streetwalkers. I'm not, in any way, condoning the racist policy of such an indie, but having had my own experiences with being badly frightened and made intensely aware of just how vulnerable I am (in part because nobody knows what I'm doing), I'm willing to allow her more room in determining what she has to do to feel safe enough to work at all. (Not unlike that cabdriver...) It's easy to say that she shouldn't be a provider at all, but then, she probably didn't become one because all the MIT jobs were taken...

 

[Cat_Ballou]

Re: The Miracle of Hanukkah

Originally posted by alterego
I suspect that shiks-appeal will get you more Hannukah gelt, not less.

æ

"Shiks-appeal"? And you groaned at me for "side-swoped"?!!! ROFL! Good one, babe...

To paraphrase Mae West: When I'm naughty, I'm good, but when I'm bad, I'm terrific...

 

[rufus4aday]

It's remarkable that this thread is still on topic, but that comes at a cost.

* other moral issues have tended to be pushed to one side

* the issue of enforcement or sanctions or consequences has been deemed irrelevant

* talk about a wholistic approach as to how one would construct a broad system of "ethical prostitution" is being ignored

So what you are left with is one very specific concern, mostly out of context, and without any take-away message as to what is to be done.

For example, let's say "racist prostitution" is unethical. What difference does that make if, say, ALL participation in prostitution is unethical to begin with?

I suspect part of what is going on here is that it's much easier and more entertaining to point the finger of blame at someone else's moral failings, and much less fun to inspect ones own.

There is some benefit in a focused finely constructed ethical analysis of a given issue. But if you don't bring that back into a measured and balanced big picture synthesis, it's a bit of a fraud. You might even say it's unethical.

 

[justlooking]

1. Ask Wwanderer whether I devote sufficient time and energy to examining my own moral failings.

2. Your post is just a more sophisticated restatement of that old canard that "because prostitution is illegal/immoral to begin with, you can't apply any standards to it". I don't buy that at all. I try very hard (albeit imperfectly) to operate as ethically as I can within what I believe to be an inherently unethical framework.* I don't see why I can't urge everyone else (on both sides of the transaction) to do the same thing.
__________________________________________
* Even if I get accused of being a racist because I avoid the pimped-out girls at ASSCon.

 

[alterego]

Originally posted by justlooking
I try very hard (albeit imperfectly) to operate as ethically as I can within what I believe to be an inherently unethical framework.

I don't see why this is so hard; if you treat people the way you would like to be treated if the circumstances were reversed then isn't that enough?

æ

 

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by justlooking
1. Ask Wwanderer whether I devote sufficient time and energy to examining my own moral failings.

Just for the record, sweetie: no one needs to ask Wwanderer that question. Whatever level of disagreement on any given issue might arise, I don't think your integrity, sincerity or willingness to be accountable has ever been called into question, and if it were, I know I am only one of many who would defend your good name in a heartbeat...

 

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
Ask Wwanderer whether I devote sufficient time and energy to examining my own moral failings.

What I think is that examining them is fine; it is a certain fixation on inventing/imaging them that might be a problem, if anything.

-Ww

 

[rufus4aday]

Originally posted by justlooking
1. Ask Wwanderer whether I devote sufficient time and energy to examining my own moral failings.

2. Your post is just a more sophisticated restatement of that old canard that "because prostitution is illegal/immoral to begin with, you can't apply any standards to it". I don't buy that at all. I try very hard (albeit imperfectly) to operate as ethically as I can within what I believe to be an inherently unethical framework.* I don't see why I can't urge everyone else (on both sides of the transaction) to do the same thing.
__________________________________________
* Even if I get accused of being a racist because I avoid the pimped-out girls at ASSCon.

I should have taken pains to ensure that you didn't take this personally...

I know *you* do (1.) In fact I think most people here do. I just feel like the result of this discussion can't be useful unless it is put in proportional context. Perhaps my comment as to why folks are reluctant to do this was gratuitous or not helpful.

I venture into (2.) only to make a point in the extreme. Saying X is unethical without saying how it stands relative the field of ethical issues that surround it is *almost* saying nothing at all.

If you want folks to try to act ethically in an unethical realm you can't consider specific ethical propositions in isolation. It has to be a big picture balancing act, and one of my points all along has been if you actually do that the supposed unethical act of this thread diminishes to the vanishing point.

 

[Harlot]

Originally posted by justlooking


2. Your post is just a more sophisticated restatement of that old canard that "because prostitution is illegal/immoral to begin with, you can't apply any standards to it". I don't buy that at all. I try very hard (albeit imperfectly) to operate as ethically as I can within what I believe to be an inherently unethical framework.* I don't see why I can't urge everyone else (on both sides of the transaction) to do the same thing.
__________________________________________

I agree with you, however it's funny to hear you say that. Only because while I know you try your hardest to operate that way, you're always saying that most people just don't give a shit about acting ethically in this case. They aren't like you and they aren't like me. It's an ugly fucked up world in commercial sex land. It's almost contradictory. I could see myself saying to you; "I just don't see why everyone who participates in this sort of thing can't be decent to one another, respect boundaries, be polite and curteous." and your reply would likely be something to the effect of; "Because that's just not the way it is. And it's silly to think it ever could be."

 

[justlooking]

Ah. It depends who I'm talking to.

If I were talking to a black guy, I'd say, "Racism sucks. But let's be realistic about this. Nobody can force these girls to do anything, and a lot of them are trailer trash to begin with. You just have to expect that kind of shit, and get over it and move on."

If I'm talking to a prostitute, though, or just musing about what I think should happen in general, I'd say . . . well, what I said in this thread.

As for the specific issue you refer to, one problem I have is that I'm on the fence about what's morally right for johns to do with prostitutes. I mean, obviously, no one could ever justify physical abuse (unless it were bargained for and paid for). But although I think it's wrong to objectify someone, treat her like a piece of meat (without hurting her), etc. . . well, I'm just not sure that's not part of the deal. (NB: I said "not sure".) That's part of why I keep saying I think this is a basically unethical business.

 

[justlooking]

What I'm trying to say in that last paragraph is that the kind of bad conduct you're referring to seems to me to be intrinsic to commercial sex, whereas racism is extrinsic. You don't do away with commercial sex if you do away with racism. I'm not sure you don't do away with commercial sex if you do away with the stuff you refer to.

 

[justlooking]

(I should make it clear -- because I don't think it is -- that the last paragraph of that post two posts up, and the entirety of my last post, are making a completely separate point from the first two paragraphs of the post two posts up.)

 

[justlooking]

That's why I keep saying I'm not trying to legislate, but just expressing an opinion.

 

[justlooking]

Also, if my views about prostitution in general seem assymetrical, it's because I think people who get paid assume a lot more obligations than the people who pay them.

 

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
(I should make it clear -- because I don't think it is -- that the last paragraph of that post two posts up, and the entirety of my last post, are making a completely separate point from the first two paragraphs of the post two posts up.)

Radio buttons, my friend, radio buttons.

-Ww