One for the providers: Myth busted - Are you a cop?

[justlooking]

If she's an undercover, then you're dead to rights once you put the envelope with the money down, having already discussed services with her before.

If the police just bust in, ask yourself this question: what are you going to tell a jury you were doing in a hotel room, with an envelope full of money out, with a woman who advertises prostitution services on BP? Circumstantial evidence is as good as any other evidence.

 

[skudd]

If she's an undercover, then you're dead to rights once you put the envelope with the money down, having already discussed services with her before.

If the police just bust in, ask yourself this question: what are you going to tell a jury you were doing in a hotel room, with an envelope full of money out, with a woman who advertises prostitution services on BP? Circumstantial evidence is as good as any other evidence.

I guess that would be the same scenario if she was a busted hooker setting you up, as opposed to a cop posing as a pro. Damn... its dangerous out there. Its almost impossible to cover all the bases unless you are going for a well reviewed established provider who screens her ass off. Frustrating.

 

[justme]

Complete hedges are theoretical constructs only.

 

[UG Staff]

If she's an undercover, then you're dead to rights once you put the envelope with the money down, having already discussed services with her before.

If the police just bust in, ask yourself this question: what are you going to tell a jury you were doing in a hotel room, with an envelope full of money out, with a woman who advertises prostitution services on BP? Circumstantial evidence is as good as any other evidence.

She had just put the envelope down. It was to pay for an ad on UG.

 

[skudd]

She had just put the envelope down. It was to pay for an ad on UG.

Basically from everything i have read, and from friends that have had close calls, ( i have never had even a remotely close call, but then again i am paranoid and cautious till i get my dick in her mouth) you are completely fucked if you are busted. If you ( anyone) is arrested you can do two things. Keep your mouth shut, perhaps give a fake name and address, keep your wallet in the car, and call a lawyer. The shit storm will inevitably happen, and you can expect to be humiliated in your local paper at the very least, and at the worst have your life ruined. Buyer beware.

 

[h4c]

Dear skudd,

Great advice giving fake names and addresses to cops. Lord knows they'll never figure it out or doubt you. Maybe offer the cop a 20 to get you a cab too, tell him/her they're public servants and chop-chop with the cab.

I'm off to church to say a prayer skudd never gets busted.

your pal

h4c

 

[RuffToy]

...Keep your mouth shut, perhaps give a fake name and address, keep your wallet in the car, and call a lawyer. The shit storm will inevitably happen, and you can expect to be humiliated in your local paper at the very least, and at the worst have your life ruined. Buyer beware.

You're better off saying nothing than falsifying your identity.

Posted On: September 30, 2008 by Jeremy Saland
False Personation in New York: Fake Information Means a New Crime

You are arrested for Prostitution in New York because you were allegedly involved in an escort service or for Forgery in Brooklyn because you were allegedly caught making counterfeit money. Regardless of the underlying crime, if you are arrested anywhere in New York - Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, Westchester, Rockland - the police can easily charge you with False Personation if you take a poor course of action. Once you are informed by law enforcement of the consequences of giving false personal information, such as a name or date of birth, and you knowingly misrepresent that information with the intent to prevent the officer from ascertaining the true information, don’t be surprised if the police charge you with False Personation even if the underlying arrest goes nowhere.

Although False Personation is “only” a “B” misdemeanor, as a former prosecutor in the Manhattan District Attorney’s Office under Robert Morgenthau and one of the first prosecutors assigned to the Identity Theft Unit upon its creation, I can tell you defendants often dug themselves into deeper holes because they provided misleading or false information. In other words, if law enforcement does not proceed with the original criminal charges you should be released and the case is over. If, however, the police try to ascertain certain information, you are advised of the consequences if you misrepresent, and you in fact misrepresent to prevent the police from determining your true identity, then you may have bought yourself a night in jail. Why is this significant? Not only will you have to spend time incarcerated waiting to see a judge, but if you were the target of an investigation or the police are investigating new charges and figuring out how to proceed, you just gave them ample time to do so and a reason to lock you up.

http://www.newyorkcriminallawyerblog.com/2008/09/false_personation_a_law_enforc.html

 

[skudd]

Dear skudd,

Great advice giving fake names and addresses to cops. Lord knows they'll never figure it out or doubt you. Maybe offer the cop a 20 to get you a cab too, tell him/her they're public servants and chop-chop with the cab.

I'm off to church to say a prayer skudd never gets busted.

your pal

h4c

OK OK... i was just thinking out loud... i hope the day never comes. I am not THAT stupid. Well... lol maybe sometimes.

You're better off saying nothing than falsifying your identity.

Posted On: September 30, 2008 by Jeremy Saland
False Personation in New York: Fake Information Means a New Crime

You are arrested for Prostitution in New York because you were allegedly involved in an escort service or for Forgery in Brooklyn because you were allegedly caught making counterfeit money. Regardless of the underlying crime, if you are arrested anywhere in New York - Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, Westchester, Rockland - the police can easily charge you with False Personation if you take a poor course of action. Once you are informed by law enforcement of the consequences of giving false personal information, such as a name or date of birth, and you knowingly misrepresent that information with the intent to prevent the officer from ascertaining the true information, don’t be surprised if the police charge you with False Personation even if the underlying arrest goes nowhere.

Although False Personation is “only” a “B” misdemeanor, as a former prosecutor in the Manhattan District Attorney’s Office under Robert Morgenthau and one of the first prosecutors assigned to the Identity Theft Unit upon its creation, I can tell you defendants often dug themselves into deeper holes because they provided misleading or false information. In other words, if law enforcement does not proceed with the original criminal charges you should be released and the case is over. If, however, the police try to ascertain certain information, you are advised of the consequences if you misrepresent, and you in fact misrepresent to prevent the police from determining your true identity, then you may have bought yourself a night in jail. Why is this significant? Not only will you have to spend time incarcerated waiting to see a judge, but if you were the target of an investigation or the police are investigating new charges and figuring out how to proceed, you just gave them ample time to do so and a reason to lock you up.

http://www.newyorkcriminallawyerblog.com/2008/09/false_personation_a_law_enforc.html

Good intel. Thanx. Again, bottom line... dont get caught.

 

[Thorn]

If she's an undercover, then you're dead to rights once you put the envelope with the money down, having already discussed services with her before.

If the police just bust in, ask yourself this question: what are you going to tell a jury you were doing in a hotel room, with an envelope full of money out, with a woman who advertises prostitution services on BP? Circumstantial evidence is as good as any other evidence.

JL, in certain jurisdictions [the State of NJ being one of them] solicitation of prostitution is a disorderly persons offence. The rule of law for disorderly persons offences in such jurisdictions is that circumstantial evidence by itself is not sufficient to establish probable cause. As such the state would have no prima facie case and no charges could be brought. Even if an arrest warrant was issued it wouldn't stand up in hearing prior to adjudication and may open the arresting department and the officers involved to liability if lack of good faith could be proven [loss of "color of office" protections].

The two elements of the crime 1) compensation [usually money] and 2) exchange for a sexual act have to be founded in real evidence usually established by an eye witness to the events. Either the arresting officer(s) themselves, confidential informant, complaining witness or - more often then one might presume - the utterances of one or more of the involved parties. Sometimes, if it is a sting, documentation in the form of recordings are introduce, or if the provider kept records of transactions, etc.

I believe even though NY uses the older English common law misdemeanor standard, that it similarly requires more than circumstantial evidence to establish probable cause in such circumstances.

 

[justme]

The fact that Thorn and JL can have a serious meaningful disagreement about the law is probably the best evidence that you should never take any legal advice from a whoreboard.

 

[h4c]

But once you got busted by the man for some version of this hobby, even if your brilliant legal advisors gets it all thrown out, folks will still remember you as the guy who got busted for whoring.

 

[Thorn]

The fact that Thorn and JL can have a serious meaningful disagreement about the law is probably the best evidence that you should never take any legal advice from a whoreboard.

Well when it comes to law in general I would bow to JL's knowledge any day.

For example, on looking back I realize I misused the legal term "real evidence". Eye witness testimony is not "real evidence", which is another way of saying physical evidence - like a gun of the same caliber that matches the twist pattern of a slug found at the scene of the crime, or the bullet itself.

Been too long since I had reason to have my nose in "Black's".

That being said though, my point is still relevant. That being in many jurisdictions circumstantial evidence is not sufficient in and of itself to rise to the level of probable cause when charging a disorderly person [low grade misdemeanor] offence. In many jurisdictions while pandering may be a crime [felony] solicitation is a minor offence.

Charging rules [standards of evidence] can differ greatly between the two [crimes and offences]. You would think, and it is interesting that it is not the case, that you would need more to charge the more serious crime than the minor offence.

Example: A man robs a check cashing storefront on Tuesday at 10am. That man is described by several eye witnesses as having been a white male with brown hair, a very specific rose tattoo on the back of his left hand and a scar on his right cheek. He drove away in a red Buick.

Mr Jones is a white male. He owns a red Buick and in it are several currency wrappers marked with the seal of the establishment that was robbed. He has brown hair, the same specific rose tattoo on the back of his left hand and a scar on his right cheek. He has a receipt from a bodega in his pocket around the corner from the bank that says 9:50am for the same Tuesday.

Though no line up has been done yet so Mr Jones has not been ID'ed by one of the witnesses as being the man who robbed the check cashing place, and he managed to allude it's surveillance equipment so the tape can't show it was him, and the evidence collected is all circumstantial, he could be arrested for robbery at that point. The level of probable cause has been reached.

A complainant states a man described as above was seen soliciting a prostitute on the street outside his house. The police find Mr Jones within minutes around the corner sitting in his red Buick, when they walk up to him he is zipping up his pants, he fits the description to a tee, same unusual tattoo and the scar. He obviously was in the neighborhood. They take Mr Jones around the corner for a show-up but the eyewitness can't identify him as the man he saw soliciting the prostitute. If Mr Jones does nothing stupid to incriminate himself he isn't getting arrested. The evidence is all circumstantial and probable cause has not been met [the police are going to hassle him, maybe find something else to charge him with, but its not going to be solicitation].

 

[justlooking]

I'm sure Thorn is right about all this.

I'll note that the hypo here was the police busting into your hotel room and catching you in bed with her with an envelope full of mony on the nightstand. Would that still be too circumstantial? I guess Thorn will say that they couldn't get a warrant to bust in in the first place?

 

[ZephyrineDevreux]

I have been meaning to post this, but until now had not gotten around to it.

Ladies, it is a scary game of cat and mouse to say the least and one of the ways that I have seen many women try to get around certain issues is by advertising on their web site that they are just doing massages or for time only.

I’ll tackle the “massages” first. You would be better off simply stating prostitution in your ads than massage, I know that sounds crazy, but it’s true.

Prostitution in the state of New York (as well as many other states, but not all) under current New York State law, Prostitution in New York is a class “B” misdemeanor punishable by up to 90 days in jail. If it is your first offense, you have no outstanding warrants, you have no drug paraphernalia on your person or weapons and you are not being an aggressive ass and you have proper ID on you, most times you will be released on a “OR” (Basically your signature) or with a 10% bail. If central booking is extremely overloaded, or if you have followed the above, you may be issued a D.A.T., a Desk Appearance Ticket. But it is just as serious as if you were taken into booking, if you do not show up a Bench Warrant will be issued for your arrest.

BUT if you have advertised as offering massages- even the NuRu massages, or a sensual body rub, you have now upped the ante and have committed a class E Felony, punishable up to 4 years. Massage in the state of New York falls under the New York education law, 7801 and 7802. Practice of Massage without a license constitutes the unlawful practice of a profession, is a class “E” felony punishable by up to 4 years in prison. Not down at the tombs, but prison. I am not stating that they will enforce this per se, but just that simple wording in your ad or web site is enough to take it from a simple misdemeanor to a felony. It’s just something to think about.


Okay, your web sites and review boards. If you have a disclaimer on your web site, with a menu and or reviews, it doesn’t matter if you never discussed the exchange of money for special services, the moment you show up, especially if at a hotel, with condoms, you are screwed. Even with the disclaimer.

That disclaimer becomes null and void once you place specific menus on your site and or reviews that admit to illegal activity, even if posted as “purely entertainment” or whatever wording you have used.

Even if you only showed up to the hotel, or had someone come to your hotel, they don’t even have to discuss with you the details of any transactions.

And for each review that is posted up, as well as your web site if it has a menu, and or reviews, can be counted, individually, as in each one, as a charge against you. As can any used covers or wrappers they find.

Even if not used as an individual charge, they can use this to build an incriminating case against you.

It becomes such a catch 22, as so many clients insist on seeing “reviews” but seem to forget that they are participating in an illegal activity, and are in fact incriminating you (and themselves) each and every time they post a review up.

And just to re-emphasize this, as another poster had pointed out, the show me yours or let me touch it, is not a good guideline to follow, think of it this way, they are undercover, and within the laws, are allowed to basically do anything to see the arrest through. Think about all the drug dealers out there, do you really think if an undercover had to be honest, that dealers wouldn’t ask first?

And for you gentlemen out there, if you have found a lady that you have truly enjoyed, or have come to care for, think carefully if you really want to put up such explicit reviews about her. Really a simple, yes you saw her, and so forth, should suffice for a review, and if anyone has any further questions, ask them to BC you.

And those of you writing to ladies, even talking in acronyms, and you go to a sting, you’re toast. You have implicated yourself just by walking in the door; you don’t even have to lay the money down or discuss anything.

Your best bet is to do some research if you can, go with your instinct, and know that if you do find yourself in hot water, that, unless you have drug paraphernalia on you, or any of the above that I mentioned, it’s a third degree (A class) misdemeanor. NY PL 230.04

Yes, it is humiliating, especially now that we have the internet to splash all of our info everywhere, but with the finances of our state, it is highly unlikely that you will serve hard time, but none the less, it’s better to be safe than sorry.

 

[ZephyrineDevreux]

I'm sure Thorn is right about all this.

I'll note that the hypo here was the police busting into your hotel room and catching you in bed with her with an envelope full of mony on the nightstand. Would that still be too circumstantial? I guess Thorn will say that they couldn't get a warrant to bust in in the first place?

They don't need a warrant. One of the biggest loopholes to the law that there is.

One could argue the technicality to it all, but the reality is that if they believe a crime is in progress, (a simple statement of “We heard a child or woman screaming Help and witnessed a crime in progress.” ) and they have the authority to break in without a warrant.

Are they going to go to this extent to make an arrest like this for a misdemeanor crime? Its highly improbable, but there is still a chance that they may, as nothing in life is certain.

Best bet, everyone keep their mouths shut as to any monetary exchange. The reality is, there could be an envelope there because the person didn’t feel safe leaving it in their car in a parking lot, which is a feasible reality. Laughable but still feasible.

 

[pudgy.in.the.middle]

I have been meaning to post this, but until now had not gotten around to it.

Ladies, it is a scary game of cat and mouse to say the least and one of the ways that I have seen many women try to get around certain issues is by advertising on their web site that they are just doing massages or for time only.

I’ll tackle the “massages” first. You would be better off simply stating prostitution in your ads than massage, I know that sounds crazy, but it’s true.

Prostitution in the state of New York (as well as many other states, but not all) under current New York State law, Prostitution in New York is a class “B” misdemeanor punishable by up to 90 days in jail. If it is your first offense, you have no outstanding warrants, you have no drug paraphernalia on your person or weapons and you are not being an aggressive ass and you have proper ID on you, most times you will be released on a “OR” (Basically your signature) or with a 10% bail. If central booking is extremely overloaded, or if you have followed the above, you may be issued a D.A.T., a Desk Appearance Ticket. But it is just as serious as if you were taken into booking, if you do not show up a Bench Warrant will be issued for your arrest.

BUT if you have advertised as offering massages- even the NuRu massages, or a sensual body rub, you have now upped the ante and have committed a class E Felony, punishable up to 4 years. Massage in the state of New York falls under the New York education law, 7801 and 7802. Practice of Massage without a license constitutes the unlawful practice of a profession, is a class “E” felony punishable by up to 4 years in prison. Not down at the tombs, but prison. I am not stating that they will enforce this per se, but just that simple wording in your ad or web site is enough to take it from a simple misdemeanor to a felony. It’s just something to think about.


Okay, your web sites and review boards. If you have a disclaimer on your web site, with a menu and or reviews, it doesn’t matter if you never discussed the exchange of money for special services, the moment you show up, especially if at a hotel, with condoms, you are screwed. Even with the disclaimer.

That disclaimer becomes null and void once you place specific menus on your site and or reviews that admit to illegal activity, even if posted as “purely entertainment” or whatever wording you have used.

Even if you only showed up to the hotel, or had someone come to your hotel, they don’t even have to discuss with you the details of any transactions.

And for each review that is posted up, as well as your web site if it has a menu, and or reviews, can be counted, individually, as in each one, as a charge against you. As can any used covers or wrappers they find.

Even if not used as an individual charge, they can use this to build an incriminating case against you.

It becomes such a catch 22, as so many clients insist on seeing “reviews” but seem to forget that they are participating in an illegal activity, and are in fact incriminating you (and themselves) each and every time they post a review up.

And just to re-emphasize this, as another poster had pointed out, the show me yours or let me touch it, is not a good guideline to follow, think of it this way, they are undercover, and within the laws, are allowed to basically do anything to see the arrest through. Think about all the drug dealers out there, do you really think if an undercover had to be honest, that dealers wouldn’t ask first?

And for you gentlemen out there, if you have found a lady that you have truly enjoyed, or have come to care for, think carefully if you really want to put up such explicit reviews about her. Really a simple, yes you saw her, and so forth, should suffice for a review, and if anyone has any further questions, ask them to BC you.

And those of you writing to ladies, even talking in acronyms, and you go to a sting, you’re toast. You have implicated yourself just by walking in the door; you don’t even have to lay the money down or discuss anything.

Your best bet is to do some research if you can, go with your instinct, and know that if you do find yourself in hot water, that, unless you have drug paraphernalia on you, or any of the above that I mentioned, it’s a third degree (A class) misdemeanor. NY PL 230.04

Yes, it is humiliating, especially now that we have the internet to splash all of our info everywhere, but with the finances of our state, it is highly unlikely that you will serve hard time, but none the less, it’s better to be safe than sorry.

Whilst I agree with the beautiful ZD (I took a peek @ her site BTW). I highly doubt one would get collared in NYC for an E felony for advertising "body rubs" or worse yet prosecuted (or persecuted) by the DA's office. This is both conjecture on my part and solicited opinions from friends in law enforcement.

Be good,

~Pudgy

 

[ZephyrineDevreux]

Thank you Pudgy. Very kind of you.

I agree with you, it is highly unlikely that one would be slapped with an E felony in NYC for body rubs or massages, but it is still an option that the DA’s office has. Honestly, the paperwork alone is not cost effective, especially in light of our States current financial issues.

While in NYC they are more interested in the owners of Brothels, then pursuing “working girls,” on Long Island and upstate New York, there is a higher probability that they will go after an E class felony if one has advertised as a Body rub or massage.

Just this past week in Upstate New York (not recalling the exact location at the moment) there is a 19 year old girl who is sitting in the clink for this exact charge. The lady she worked with, who did not perform a “massage” has been released.


Warmly,
ZD

 

[Thorn]

It becomes such a catch 22, as so many clients insist on seeing “reviews” but seem to forget that they are participating in an illegal activity, and are in fact incriminating you (and themselves) each and every time they post a review up.

It is not the posting of the review by the customer, as there is room for plausible deniablity in it when there is separation between the review and the provider being reviewed ["I don't know what that person is writing about. He isn't describing any time he spent with me.]

The problem comes when the provider posts those reviews, or links to them, in her website. Now she is holding them out as factual examples of what time spent with her is like. She has removed the separation between herself and the reviews and the plausible deniablity that came with it.

Note, I am not saying the reviews on public boards help matters any. I am stating that until the provider acknowledges them as factual by using them in her advertising they don't constitute an acknowledgement of an illegal act taking place. Up until that point the writer of it can state he made it up, and the provider can claim the same. When the two involved both claim, without any arm twisting, that something took place and then try to recant... whole other story.

And just to re-emphasize this, as another poster had pointed out, the show me yours or let me touch it, is not a good guideline to follow, think of it this way, they are undercover, and within the laws, are allowed to basically do anything to see the arrest through. Think about all the drug dealers out there, do you really think if an undercover had to be honest, that dealers wouldn’t ask first?

There is a MAJOR difference in regard to prostitution though.

While yes, investigators acting under the proper color of their official office can do things, even break laws with permission of their handlers or supervisors, there are issues that come up specific to prostitution in these regards.

There is specific case law out of Texas and Louisiana of officers who actually committed acts of sex in stings to arrest prostitutes working in massage parlors. The cases, when adjudicated, were dismissed. Not only that but the prosecutor that was involved in the sting [most stings get assigned a prosecutor to deal with legal questions in the set-up, enactment and follow up of a sting] got terminated, as did the immediate supervisors overseeing the sting. The reason, the huge public backlash when it was published in the local press that cops were getting blown with tax-payer money. Apparently that didn't, pardon the expression, "go down" well with the local voters.

Imagine, if you will, a police woman doing a street level sting asking a potential john if he wants a good time being told by the guy to flash her breasts and then the female officer actually doing it, and then having it come out in court that she did it. The vast majority [approaching 100%] of female officers are not flashing some guy to make an arrest, and while it is crude to ask a woman to flash it isn't usually illegal. Especially since she just offered him a sex act for money. Since the potential john didn't say he was accepting an offer of sex for money, he just said, "Show me your tits.", he hasn't committed solicitation.

Imagine a married or otherwise in a committed relationship officer admitting in open court he had cheated on his spouse or girl-friend in a PD sanctioned and authorized sex act with a prostitute. Imagine the divorce suit naming the police department as a correspondent in the divorce.

No, while you are technically correct there are practical limitations in investigations that limit the police in using such tactics to effect stings of the nature you describe. Those practical limitations make, in certain circumstances, the "you show me yours" BEFORE any discussion of sex acts or money takes place quite viable as a testing tool for certain forms of solicitation and/or prostitution.

 

[Thorn]

They don't need a warrant. One of the biggest loopholes to the law that there is.

One could argue the technicality to it all, but the reality is that if they believe a crime is in progress, (a simple statement of “We heard a child or woman screaming Help and witnessed a crime in progress.” ) and they have the authority to break in without a warrant.

What you are referring to is called "exigent circumstance".

Yes it exists once upon a time in a galaxy far, far, away was used as you suggest, but like in most cases where such tools were handy for police to have over reliance on them has all but nulified them in this day and age.

Do you have any notion as to the liability an officer places his department in if he uses the exigent circumstance exception to do a warrant-less breaking in on someone, even if s/he finds a crime on the other side of it [and it better be a pretty serious crime] and it can be shown no such exigent circumstance actually existed. Awful damn risky roll of the dice with the pension, not to mention the charges for violation of civil rights and criminal malfeasance in office that might attach.

That stuff makes great TV drama but it hasn't been the stuff of decent police work for decades.

Best bet, everyone keep their mouths shut as to any monetary exchange. The reality is, there could be an envelope there because the person didn’t feel safe leaving it in their car in a parking lot, which is a feasible reality. Laughable but still feasible.

Anything that raises actual reasonable doubt works. The problem becomes:

1) Is this a known methodology for committing this particular crime/offence. [envelope with money in it certainly is in the case in prostitution]

2) Has either or both of these individuals been arrested, charged or convicted of these acts before. If so, was there reporting as to their using this method at those times?

3) If it was a sting was the due diligence done? If so there are going to be tapes of the individuals speaking before the meeting of what acts and how much. The fact that the money is sitting in an envelope on the dresser isn't going to mean much if they can show the guy put it there, and if there were instructions in the recorded dialog to do precisely that... well, game over.

The thing of it is that even though it is an illegal business transaction, it is still a business transaction. Few people are going to conduct business without discussing, even in the most non-transparent ways, what you get for what you give.

If the police can show the makings of the deal in a way that a judge can understand [remember, most of these cases are done in municipal courts, no juries to confuse], then its made the two elements needed to charge solicitation and prostitution: $$$$ in exchange for sexual activity.

 

[justlooking]

Yeah, everybody just remember that "doubt" and "reasonable doubt" aren't the same thing.