On the subject of condiments...

J

justlooking

#241
#241
But that's just a very elegant statement of Masquerade's point.

While I think it's admirable, I also think life doesn't necessarily work that way -- and also, that we're on a whoreboard, so certain failings have to be taken as givens.

(Of course, as you know, I have very different feelings about buying commercial sex and having affairs.)
 
Thorn

Thorn

#242
#242
SubmissiveAngel said:
maybe you are blissful when living in someone else's lie, but that is not a sentiment shared by all.
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What I believe it was the obvious point of the comment is that the third person removes the right of the person being effected by the news to make their own choice. The third person deciding for them what they should, and shouldn't, know.

That sound like something someone else ought to decide for you?

i used the same argument when trying to dissuade shithead from contacting my sister. i said she did not want to know the truth. well, i was completely wrong.
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Wouldn't it be nice if someone could have asked her what she wanted before a third party made that decision for her?

so, while i understand the instinct of self-preservation, it is still a little cuckoo for a person to defend the right of choice while robbing their SO of the same.
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That's a valid point.

The only lies I tell are ones of omission, but a lie by omission is still a lie. All I can say is I wish the world was different, but it isn't. I'd gladly allow anyone I care about to seek physical satisfaction where they find it. The only fidelity I care about is emotional. I don't make the rules though, and the BIG difference is intent. I am not doing what I am doing [with holding info] to cause pain but to prevent it [both hers and mine].

In the case of shithead telling your sister, and I believe at least to some extent in your telling his wife, causing pain was a factor.

Intent... BIG difference.
 
Thorn

Thorn

#243
#243
SubmissiveAngel said:
your certitude suggests that you have been the 'victim' of a 'hit and run'. in case you didn't catch it the last two times, i'd really like to hear about your personal experience with this stuff.
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My cetitude is born of some personal experience which I can not go into because the details are specific and would out me to anyone reading who knew me IRL.

More than my own personal experience though is that 25 year seat on the front row of the passion play, in a place where I could place myself into the middle of persons lives at moments such as these and see how it effected them and the other players involved. Literally thousands of times over. The pain. The anguish. The physical damage sometimes unto death itself. Every angle and possible result, over and over again.

There are only three responses to that. You can't cope and you find something else to do for a living. You turn off certain things and just don't feel it anymore. You let it become your teacher and take an interested but dispassionate vantage and learn what there is to learn from it. Working in the NYC area as a detective, assigned to some of the units I was assigned to, is the greatest human dynamics lab class there is. None better in my estimation. [later there was class work and theory, but that lab work...]

That is where the majority of any certitude I have regarding topics like this is born. In all that lab work.

And if you want to hear my personal stories on this I'll tell you of what I did when confronted by someone who was going to out me to my wife. Like I said, it is unusual in its details and would identify me to anyone who read it and knew me in real life so I can't tell it here.
 
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S

SubmissiveAngel

#245
#245
Thorn said:
What I believe it was the obvious point of the comment is that the third person removes the right of the person being effected by the news to make their own choice. The third person deciding for them what they should, and shouldn't, know.

That sound like something someone else ought to decide for you?
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not to be contentious, thorn, but that makes no sense. the cheater has been "deciding for them what they should, and shouldn't, know" all along. apparently, he has a 'right' to do this because his intent is to save his own ass. very strange indeed.

how does this work when a friend of yours is being cheated on? do you analyze the cheater's intent, and say nothing if he is lying to save his own ass? it's all just too bizarre.
 
S

SubmissiveAngel

#246
#246
Thorn said:
More than my own personal experience though is that 25 year seat on the front row of the passion play, in a place where I could place myself into the middle of persons lives at moments such as these and see how it effected them and the other players involved.
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i respect your years of professional experience, thorn, and i honor the wisdom you gained there. however, the things we observe do not determine our personal feelings and behavior so much, do they? for instance did seeing thousands of alcoholics change how you feel when you drink? did seeing a thousand adulterous marriages fly apart change how you regard your own infidelity?

i know it was stated earlier in the thread that the topic can only be discussed in general rather than personal terms. i completely disagree. in my opinion, your personal experience (and i don't mean the gory details!) is much more meaningful than your observations of others.

it's the difference between "i saw 100 people get stabbed and how painful it was" and "i got stabbed and it hurt like hell."
 
M

marcinny

#247
#247
We may also have a conflict of interest here that does not free us to the point of changing our positions. Do we insist on our positions because of what we think is right or because it is in our interest to believe in them?

On our side, we want to make sure that not only we're doing what we're doing but that feel good about it and justify it not only based on our animal urges but also on human reason too.

SA meanwhile has already acted at least once to break the truth to someone's someone and accepting our position would mean for her to admit that she did something really awful, even more awful that she's willing to accept.

What I mean is: are we debating on this to find the best answer or are we debating to improve our arguments and convince ourselves even more about "the right choice" that we have made in life.
 
H

HawkEye65

#248
#248
marcinny said:
What I mean is: are we debating on this to find the best answer or are we debating to improve our arguments and convince ourselves even more about "the right choice" that we have made in life.
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From earlier:

HawkEye65 said:
The last thing we want anyone throwing in our face is "personal responsibility"! If I wanted that I would tell more people in my life about my "other life" so they could set me straight.

P.S. I don't really consider us assholes, just selfish jerks with varying degrees of justification and rationalization.
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While I don't doubt people believe what they are stating, I still think there are "varying degrees of justification and rationalization" being argued.
 
J

justme

homo economicus
#249
#249
justlooking said:
But that's just a very elegant statement of Masquerade's point.

While I think it's admirable, I also think life doesn't necessarily work that way -- and also, that we're on a whoreboard, so certain failings have to be taken as givens.
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No, it's not just a restatement of Masquerade. Not speaking for SA, I can say that I am in no way advocating, as Masquerade did, that you not try to deceive your wife. I think, and I believe you agree, that it's probably unethical. Still, everyone makes their own decisions and as you mention this point is a but of a non-starter on a board dedicated somewhat to helping people cheat.

My point is that to be upset at someone for not continuing your deception, unless that person has some kind of obligation to do so because of their relationship to you, is ridiculous. In that world view a child who reports the abuse of his mother by his father is a "catalyst" for the upheaval the family and should accept "blame" for the pain that friends and relatives of the family will feel. In that world view a whistle-blower, resentful of his overtime, who reports his company's illegal disposal of waste (toxic assets?) is "responsible" for the impact to the economy when the market adjusts.

If you want to lie, fine; I get that you might think that it's an appropriate solution. If you want to resent someone for their schadenfreude, that's probably appropriate as well. I just don't think that you can resent someone for telling the truth in itself. In other words, Thorn argues that intent to harm taints the truth while I think that the two are independent and must be evaluated separately.
 
H

HawkEye65

#251
#251
justme said:
What was the purpose of this thread, and indeed section, again?
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I am just adding some "reminder text" in case anyone else is as anal as I am and wanted/needed to reread the specific wording before replying.

Section: "how to successfully live a double life; how to avoid entanglements with law enforcement; how to screen clients effectively; how to deal effectively with being screened, etc"

Definitely applies to my (and others) justification and rationalization comment.

Thread (abbreviated from Thorn's original post):

"I, myself, likening life to a meal I have said that "hobbying" is the condiment guys use to spice it up a little. We know, at least I think we do, that one can't live on spices. You have to have nutritious things to eat and the spice just makes it more savory...

Can one hobby for an extended period and remain healthy and well balanced. Is it that people who have issue with hobbying bring it into the situation with them, or is it that the hobbying itself causes the problem over time? Maybe some of both?"

I think that the justification and rationalization is relevant, but not directly responsive. Yes, it is a tool that some people use to deal with extended hobbying, but is not a direct answer to the question of "can one remain healthy and well balanced".

If it requires a certain level of justification and rationalization, I don't think one remains healthy and well balanced. One deals with this however one can, but for me the answer for most would be "No, but I get by the best I can under the circumstances".
 
Thorn

Thorn

#252
#252
SubmissiveAngel said:
not to be contentious, thorn, but that makes no sense. the cheater has been "deciding for them what they should, and shouldn't, know" all along. apparently, he has a 'right' to do this because his intent is to save his own ass. very strange indeed.
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Not at all. Not at all. But since when do to wrongs make a right?

And there is a difference in intent IF the one looking to save his/her own ass also would prefer no pain for the person s/he is hiding something from. The third party with intent to cause harm has not even that small saving grace. Their only intent is to do harm and they are masking that intent with the facade of "truth teller".

how does this work when a friend of yours is being cheated on? do you analyze the cheater's intent, and say nothing if he is lying to save his own ass? it's all just too bizarre.
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We've had these discussions here and elsewhere.

I always come down on the side that unless that person is having assets of their stolen in the process they can't recover than I stay stick to your own business.

IOW, if someone I know is being STOLEN from AND cheated on I'll them them because resources they can't recover are involved. Odds are I'll get told to mind my own business, because that is the way it usually works. Love is blind, after all, and sometimes a little stupid as well.

If I find out something about a boy/girl-friend cheating on a friend of mine I'm not telling him/her or letting the cheating partner know I know. Like the third party jumping in to a fight with all the good intention in the world to break it up, it never works out well in the end. Not for the two fighting, and certainly not for the person trying to break it up [unless they are getting paid to do it and know precisely how].

Best thing I can do for a friend in those circumstances is let them figure up from down for themselves and be there for them when they do.
 
Thorn

Thorn

#253
#253
SubmissiveAngel said:
for instance did seeing thousands of alcoholics change how you feel when you drink? did seeing a thousand adulterous marriages fly apart change how you regard your own infidelity?
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The short answer is, absolutely and most certainly yes it did.

SubmissiveAngel said:
i know it was stated earlier in the thread that the topic can only be discussed in general rather than personal terms. i completely disagree. in my opinion, your personal experience (and i don't mean the gory details!) is much more meaningful than your observations of others.

it's the difference between "i saw 100 people get stabbed and how painful it was" and "i got stabbed and it hurt like hell."
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I've said this before, there are two ways to learn.

Observation, which I call "learning by osmosis"; and self-experience which I call "the punch and learn method".

Is it better to learn how to duck by being hit in the head, or by watching someone else get hit in the head?

When it comes to learning how to deal with pitfalls in life I will take the "learning by osmosis" method over "punch and learn" any day of the year. Of course, when it comes to learning the pleasures of life, the opposite is true.

I will grant you that if you prefer the punch and learn method for everything than you are really the true hedonist, not I.

That we might place our combined experience in this forum for the benefit of a little "learning by osmosis" for everyone else is precisely why I thought a forum of this type might be a good idea on a board like this one.
 
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