Greatest Pitcher of All Time

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ChuckUFarlie

#81
#81
Ozzy said:
If Randy Johnson is a contemporary of Pedro... so is Clemens since Johnson and Clemens are only separated by two years and Clemens won 4(?) of his cy youngs while Pedro was pitching. Clemens also pitched in the same park where Pedro made his mark. When Pedro puts together a string of 15 or 16 great years out of 20 or 22 I'll compare him to Clemens.

If anyone still thinks there isn't a big difference between pitching on astro turf to natural grass for a pitcher... look at Pedro's numbers in Montreal and Boston. Tom Seaver in NY and Cincinnati.
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What? Pedro's second best career year was in Montreal. I think it's easier to pitch in the NL than in the AL anyway, especially at Fenway. Don't forget Pedro was a strikeout pitcher and you still get your away games away from the turf but in the AL the fucking DH is always there.

You can't really compare Pedro vs Clemens. At their best Pedro was better. Clemens is a big brute of a workhorse. He goes on and on. But lets not forget that Clemens put did have quite a few seasons with an ERA well over 4.00.
For those of you who are interested in winning %, Pedro hit his 200 win mark with a winning percentage of over 700. Who else accomplished that?

The best pitchers of all time when at their best are Koufax and Pedro.
As for the best career, well that's harder to say.
 
O

Ozzy

#82
#82
We're talking about over-all not a few seasons... And Pedro's numbers OVER-ALL in Montreal were in the mid to high 3's era cept for his last 1.90. Look at his brief numbers playing in LA before Montreal (mid 2's), and then after Montreal all mid 2's or better in Boston cept for his last year 3.90.


Clemens was once asked if he thought his numbers would have been even better had he not pitched in tiny Fenway most of his career, he replied they were better than if he'd pitched in the spacious Astro Dome with the astro turf.

And of the 4 times Clemens was over 4 in era... all of them were during injury plagued years, as a result all four accounted for 4 or the 5 years he didn't pitch at least 200 innings once he became a full time starter (his 3rd season).
 
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O

Ozzy

#83
#83
And Koufax ain't the greatest in my book either. If he had two more dominant years like 84 and 85, would all you guys be calling Gooden the greatest ever?

"Greatest" to me means at least 10-15 solid years, half of those being great ones. Pedro gives another couple solid years and I'll put him on some list. The problem I have wth Pedro is that he's the greatest 6 inning pitcher ever. He can barely pitch 200 innings in a season. He's thrown only 17 shutouts in his career..... Gibson threw almost that many in a season.
 
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D

Daddycool

#85
#85
argleby said:
I disagree. I think the steroid stain will keep Palmeiro and a lot of others out, including McGwire, Sosa and, I hope, Bonds.

But Palmeiro especially, as he lied so publicly and then failed a drug test.
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These four guys should have their numbers recended from baseballs records for their drug use. No astericks, no nothings just erased. Especially Sosa who not only juiced but got caught with a corked bat! We now know why he is the only player to hit 60 home runs for 3 seasons.
 
D

Daddycool

#86
#86
Stats like this are what baseball is about:

And Steve Carlton won 27 games for a team that won only 59 in 1972 with a 1.97 era.... and he pitched on astro turf his entire career.

I'll give you another mind boggling stat. Tony Gwynn during his 1997 season out of his 592 AB he swung and missed at a pitch only 14 times.
 
I

Irish Mike

banned
#87
#87
Change the thought on this

Stats, Stats, Stats, here is a different way to ask it. Game 7 of the World Series, who would you start if you could start one pitcher in the history of baseball?.......

It wouldn't be Ryan or Maddox or R. Johnson, they are great pitchers but have had issues when handed the ball in big situations. Ryan and Johnson have zero rings and Ryan was on good teams in Houston. Maddox has a ring, but his post-season career has been far from stellar.

This is a tough one and digging into history shows some interesting facts.

Here are the all time leaders in victories in the World Series:

Whitey Ford - 10
Bob Gibson - 7
Allie Reynolds - 7

While Whitey Ford benefited from all those great Yankee teams, this was before salaries went crazy. That being said, Gibson had much scarier stuff than Ford.

If you look a little deeper, Ford's record was only 10-8 in Series play while Gibson was 7-2., going 3-0 against the Red Sox in 1967. He also hit 2 HR's in Series play.

So, I vote that I would start Bob Gibson over any other pitcher in game 7 of the World Series.
 
C

circle360

#88
#88
Scarier thought about Bob gibson. he started 9 games in the World Series. He had 8 complete games with an ERA of 1.82. The only time he didnt throw a CG in the World Series he went 8 innings. Then in his next start he went 10 innings to get the win. The guy was incredible. In 81 innings in the World Series , he struck out 92 guys. Plus his record was 7-2 in those 9 games.

Ford was great as well. Just not as great as Gibson. In 22 World Series games . Ford won 10 and lost 8. His ERA was almost a run higher at 2.71. He only threw 7 complete games, in over twice as many games as Gibson. They struck out almost the same number of guys. But Ford did it in an extra 60 innings.
 
L

Lascivious

#89
#89
Gibson was a monster. He beat Denny McLain twice in 68 in the world series and was definitely a money pitcher. My knock on Clemens is he's not a big game pitcher or if he does perform, his team ends up losing the game in horrific fashion(86 WS game 6 and 2001 WS game 7). Yea, not his fault, but his team still loss(bad karma) He couldn't beat OAkland in 88 and 90 and Cleveland in 95 posting 0 wins. The Yanks already won 2 world series b4 he came and the first big postseason game he pitched for them was against Pedro and he got rocked while Pedro threw 7 scoreless with 12ks. His last 3 big games was games 7 2003 alcs and the RedSox lit him up(the curse would have ended a year earlier, thank you Grady Little), blew the lead and the game in game7 2004 nlcs and got hurt in 2005 ws. Clemens is a great pitcher and if you want to make him the greatest all time or at least living pitcher like Peter(I love Boston)Gammons did, I have no problems with that but I'll take a Gibson or Koufax over him. I have the same problems with Greg Maddux....a big postseason bust. On the flip side, I definitely think Whitey Ford does not belong with these guys. Great career with great teams but if he matched up with Koufax and Gibson...who would you lay your money with.
 
H

Heartbreaker

#90
#90
From everything I've heard or read, Gibson would be the one pitcher you would want to start a Game 7. What I always wanted to know was, how did he lose 9 games while posting a 1.12 era? Must have lost a lot of 1-0 or 2-1 games.
 
M

Mr. Wet Wooly

#93
#93
Ozzy said:
Clemens.

Mets fans don't want to hear it or give him his due, but he played in the American League with a DH, in the super ball era, with steroid jacked up monsters hitting 50 and 60 hrs a year,
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You're assuming Rocket wasn't on steroids too. I'm not saying he was, but certainly many pitchers were, but aren't mentioned as much as the hitters.
 
O

Ozzy

#95
#95
Steroids offer absolutely zero bennefit for a pitchers mechanics.

It's not like Clemens threw a 95 mph fastball in his 20's and a 105mph fastball in his late 30's.
 
M

Mr. Wet Wooly

#96
#96
Ozzy said:
Steroids offer absolutely zero bennefit for a pitchers mechanics.

It's not like Clemens threw a 95 mph fastball in his 20's and a 105mph fastball in his late 30's.
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No; but some types of steroids could give you incredible energy to work out and stay in the incredible shape you need to be in to keep pitching a 95mph fast ball until you're 40.
 
L

Lascivious

#97
#97
Yea roids could keep an old dude from deteriating where his body just can't keep up. Bonds kept gaining experience and the roids allowed him to keep his body up to the point where experience and skills made him all world. The same could apply to power pitchers. Experience makes him a better pitcher and the roids allow him to keep his 95+ heater makes him devestating .
 
L

Lascivious

#98
#98
As I much as I love Guidry's 78 season, I think GIbson's 68 yr was the greatest single pitching year in the modern era. You're right...losing 9 games with that era means he should have killed some his hitters.
 
O

oddfellow4870

#100
#100
If we are going to "coulda might have been" you should look at Ruth's brief postseason pitching career and imagine what a great baseball player he was.

Postseason Pitching

Year Round Tm Opp WLser G GS ERA W-L SV CG SHO IP H ER BB SO
+------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+
1916 WS BOS BRO W 1 1 0.64 1-0 0 1 0 14.0 6 1 3 4
1918 WS BOS CHC W 2 2 1.06 2-0 0 1 1 17.0 13 2 7 4
+------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+
2 World Series 2-0 3 3 0.87 3-0 0 2 1 31.0 19 3 10 8
+------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+
 
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