Greatest Pitcher of All Time

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Top 20 in no particualr order

Walter Johnson
Young
Lefty Grove
Alexander
Seaver
Spahn
Mathewson
Gibson
Koufax
Clemens
Feller
Maddux
Carlton
Palmer
Pedro
Marichel
Johnson
Hubbell
Palmer
Roberts

For one dominant season:

1913 Walter Johnson
Koufax - 63,65 or 67. Anyone of the 3
Gibson - 68
Carlton - 72
Guidry -78
Gooden - 85
Maddux -95
Pedro - 2000

 

[Gavvy Cravath]

If your'e going to go back as far as Walter Johnson... Cristy Mattewson was better and Cy Young..... well 511 wins says it all.

You just have to look at Walter Johnson's career. Who is comparable? Good call on Matthewson...Koufax was the best all time in a five year stint. Will come back to this thread and read in depth...

Gavy

 

[Ozzy]

A few points here billy. First you are right. Carlton bounced around liek crazy his last few years. But in his last 2 years and a month he won 15 games. He was 43 years old when he retired. As for a few spectacular seasons? He had one of the greatest seasons ever. In 1972 he won 27 games for a team who won 62 games. He won 43% of the Phillies game that one yr. Thats unheard of. People were talking before about seaver playing on bad teams as well as Ryan. What about carlton for those few years as well. He might have been an asshole to the press and the fans. but the guy sure could pitch. Hes probably the third or 4th best Left handed pitcher of all time. Behind only Spahn, Koufax and maybe Randy Johnson.The Johnson one is debatable.

Seaver played on a few bad teams with the mets but still played on two world series teams in 69 and 73... then he was traded to arguably the best team ever and finished with two playoff contenders where he failed to win more than 16 games with either.

Carlton played most of his prime for the Phillies in the 70's and early 80's. Of his 14 or 15 seasons with the Phils, he had a few bad teams early on but then had ten solid seasons during his prime with one of the best teams in baseball.... Not to mention being a lefty he had arguably the greatest fielding third baseman in history and a not so shabby SS saving alot of runs on the left side on the infield.

None of the pitchers mention played on as many bad teams thru-out their careers as Ryan.

Most of you are just looking at pitching stats and not taking into consideration all the other variables that go into making some of these guys great pitchers. Consider the defensive players some of these guys had behind them, or that guys like Seaver pitched to two or three of the greatest defensive/game callers ever in Grote, Bench and Fisk.

 

[Mr. User Name]

Exactly right. Baseball is linked to its past like no other sport. Which is why tearing down Yankee Stadium, where Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Williams and countless other greats played, is an abomination.

Sorry, I guess that's changing the subject, but it seemed appropriate.

I'm in basic agreement with this. Sorry to say there is a missing link in this illustrious past. The records of the Negro Leagues are poorly maintained. It is asserted, and I belive that Satchel Paige pitched over 300 shutouts and easily exceeded 1500 victories.
He is the greatest.
Now let's argue over who is the second greatest.

 

[Ozzy]

I'm in basic agreement with this. Sorry to say there is a missing link in this illustrious past. The records of the Negro Leagues are poorly maintained. It is asserted, and I belive that Satchel Paige pitched over 300 shutouts and easily exceeded 1500 victories.
He is the greatest.
Now let's argue over who is the second greatest.

Where did you ever get such an idiotic statistic as 1500 victories when he never started more than 60 games in a year, Never won 40, and his best years were with the Pittsburgh Crawfords he was 32-7 and 31-4 in 1932-33 and later after he went to pitch in the Domincan republic and Mexico due to arm problems, had a string of 4 straight 30 win seasons with the Kansas City Monarchs in the early 40's. No wonder the records are so poorly maintained... it allows people to just make shit up a lot easier.

But really... do the math. He pitched 22 years in the negro leagues (1926-48) before Bill Veeck brought him up to the majors in 1948 when he was in his mid 40's (45?). Assuming he won 50 games a year in each of those 22 years... he'd still be 400 victories short of that statement. Every reliable stat I've seen for Page's negro league figures, puts him in the 350-500 victory range. And lets be honest... yes there were many great players.... but it still wasn't the major leagues by any stretch of the imagination.

The one extremely unique thing about Page was that in the mid 60's he came in to pitch a game for Bill Veecks A's 12 years after he retired. Threw three scorless innings at the age of 59.

 

[Mr. User Name]

Where did you ever get such an idiotic statistic as 1500 victories
.

Magic words...........winter ball

 

[Mr. User Name]

The one extremely unique thing about Page was that in the mid 60's he came in to pitch a game for Bill Veecks A's 12 years after he retired. Threw three scorless innings at the age of 59.

Don't know if he received credit for it but Veeck did this so that Paige would qualfy for the minimum pension.

 

[Mr. User Name]

Those of you who have not followed the Negro Leagues will have a chance to learn a great deal soon. Pay close attention in July when Effa Manley in inducted into the Hall of Fame.

 

[robnotbob]

Seaver got rooked out of the Cy Young in (I think) 1981..finsihed 14-2 and came in 2nd to Valenzuela.

 

[Ozzy]

For one dominant season:

1913 Walter Johnson
Koufax - 63,65 or 67. Anyone of the 3
Gibson - 68
Carlton - 72
Guidry -78
Gooden - 85
Maddux -95
Pedro - 2000

Koufax retired after the '66 season. 63-66 were his big four seasons... '66 being the best.


And everyone talking about ONE great season missed probably the greatest of the modern era.... Denny Mclain's 1968..... 31-6 280 k's 1.96 ERA

I'll put that up against most listed above.

 

[Yashar45]

Hi everyone. This is just my humble opinion on the subject. I don't think in a conversation where we're talking about some of the greatest of all ime pitchers that someone who had only 1-3 great seasons should be even mentioned in the conversation. I think a perfect example of that is Roger Maris. He had a few great seasons. He was also the only slugger to break The Babes's record (even though, he played in more games to do it). Roger Maris' accomplishment has withstood the test of time. It took 34 years for someone for Maris to finally shatter The Babe's record. After Maris broke the record, it took another 37 years and a bunch of players on steroids to break Maris' record. Maris did have a few great seasons, and held on to one of the greatest records in baseball for 37 years, but does that make him a hall of famer? Does that make him one of the greatest sluggers of all time? no, it doesn't. There are a bunch of reasons that can be named why he is not in the Hall of Fame. He was never been a .300 hitter not even in the season he broke the Babe's record. And in the 11 years he played, he only has compiled 275 homeruns. His fielding stats were not great either.

But then, another aspect are people who have extremely long careers and eventually over long periods of time are able to compile great numers. There are some pitchers and sluggers as well who fall into this category such as Ryan and Palmeiro. If these two were not "freaks of nature" who were able to stay healthy and durable for such a long time, they would not have been able to compile such numbers. I know eventually that Palmeiro will end up in the HOF, because of his numbers (3020 hits, 569 homeruns) but it took him 19 years of being a good player to do it. He did have a few great seasons, but by that time he most likely was juiced up like everyone else. Where do people who fall into these categories stand? Anyway, I'm going to stop rambling on. Just my $.02.

 

[Yashar45]

By the way, I am not trying to belittle these players accomplishments due to longevity. I mean, like in the case of Palmeiro, there are only three other players (Eddie Murray, Hank Aaron and Willie Mays) last I checked that have 500+ homeruns and 3000+ hits. He is definitely in good company.

 

[Ozzy]

Palmeiro even with his number was considered a borderline HOF'er before the steroid issue regardless of his 500/3000.... now he's a big question mark. My guess is he doesn't go in first ballot and maybe not at all.

400 home runs used to guarantee HOF status... Dave Kingman changed that. Now that players are playing longer, staying healthy and playing more games, the steroid factor etc... the 500/3000 clubs won't guarantee HOF status anymore.

 

[Gavvy Cravath]

Those of you who have not followed the Negro Leagues will have a chance to learn a great deal soon. Pay close attention in July when Effa Manley in inducted into the Hall of Fame.

I read Neil Lanctot's book, Negro League Baseball: The Rise and Ruin of a Black Institution and was fascinated by all that I learned. The book is well researched, yet very dry. Definitely one that you can dedicate a section of a time, not one that you can read cover to cover in a week.

Effa Manley was quite a character...

My father grew up in Glendale, Queens. His father took him not only to Ebbets Field, but also to Dexter Park (located next to Franklin K. Lane HS) in Jamaica, Queens. My dad loves talking about the semi-pro Bushwicks (white semipro team) and all those great Negro league players that came in.

There are a ton of stories that he and my uncle (baseball sports writer for close to 40 years in NYC and Pittsburgh) told me...

Apparantly, Ms Manley "dated" a lot of her players in lieu of raises. Maybe rumors about this female pioneer in baseball were unwarranted, but you just know the story of Satchel Paige asking her to be his "secret girlfriend" is true. Classic Paige, according to my uncle.

Gavy

 

[Mr. User Name]

Apparantly, Ms Manley "dated" a lot of her players in lieu of raises. Maybe rumors about this female pioneer in baseball were unwarranted, but you just know the story of Satchel Paige asking her to be his "secret girlfriend" is true. Classic Paige, according to my uncle.
Gavy

I wonder how her stats compare to Babe Ruth's.
Also she might have told us how fast "Cool Papa" Bell really was.
Remember it was Satchel Paige who laid down the bunt that allowed Cool Papa to score.

 

[Yashar45]

Palmeiro even with his number was considered a borderline HOF'er before the steroid issue regardless of his 500/3000.... now he's a big question mark. My guess is he doesn't go in first ballot and maybe not at all.

400 home runs used to guarantee HOF status... Dave Kingman changed that. Now that players are playing longer, staying healthy and playing more games, the steroid factor etc... the 500/3000 clubs won't guarantee HOF status anymore.

I can't predict what will happen far into the future, but Palmeiro regardless of if he deserves it or not will be in the HOF (more than likely in the first ballot). Everyone who has had 3000+ hits (with the exception of Pete Rose) is in the HOF. Everyone who has hit 500+ Homeruns is also in the HOF. There are only three other people besides Palmeiro who had 3000+ hits and 500+ homeruns in MLB history. I think the steroid issue may create some type of stir in the media during the first ballot, but he will more than likely still get the 75% of the votes that he needs to get in.

 

[billyS]

Also she might have told us how fast "Cool Papa" Bell really was.
Remember it was Satchel Paige who laid down the bunt that allowed Cool Papa to score.

Most of those stories from the old Negro league are bullshit. Just ledgends, like the time Josh Gibson allegedly hit one clean out of Yankee Stadium. Never happen. I read a book back in the 1970's about the NL and it stated he came close. But over time that homer kept getting longer and longer and before you knew it, it had left the stadium completly.

 

[argleby]

I can't predict what will happen far into the future, but Palmeiro regardless of if he deserves it or not will be in the HOF (more than likely in the first ballot). Everyone who has had 3000+ hits (with the exception of Pete Rose) is in the HOF. Everyone who has hit 500+ Homeruns is also in the HOF. There are only three other people besides Palmeiro who had 3000+ hits and 500+ homeruns in MLB history. I think the steroid issue may create some type of stir in the media during the first ballot, but he will more than likely still get the 75% of the votes that he needs to get in.

I disagree. I think the steroid stain will keep Palmeiro and a lot of others out, including McGwire, Sosa and, I hope, Bonds.

But Palmeiro especially, as he lied so publicly and then failed a drug test.

 

[tits$ass]

Sandy Koufax was and still is the best pitcher ever to play the game. Every player that played against him said so.

As far as the steriod issue, I think it is ridiculous that they consider steriods since they were not banned, further, that they knew it was going on. Major league baseball is to blame not the players and unless they can actually prove that the individuals were on steriods they should not be able to hold it against them.

In reality, the damn media writers and voters don't see it the fair way.

 

[Mr. User Name]

Koufax's good years were those immediately after expansion. In essence one out of every four batters he faced during those years would not have been good enough a few years earlier.