Congratulations, Barry

#21
scoochamenz1 said:
maybe free of steroids, but what about all the substances that they have no tests for? please, this is all a joke. let them pump themselves full of juice till their fucking heads explode. as long as the games are fun to watch, who fucking cares?
Thats why I have mixed emotions on this. On one hand its the athlete's body and if they want to poison themselves and play Russian roulette with all kinds of dangerous substances then so be it but on the other hand, sports are so important in this day and age (and mean something to a lot of us) that the idea that there should be a level playing field is certainly a legitimate argument. If not then all sports would have as much legitimacy as pro wrestling does.

Btw, the NFL doesn't only test for steroids.
 
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#22
scoochamenz1 said:
maybe free of steroids, but what about all the substances that they have no tests for? please, this is all a joke. let them pump themselves full of juice till their fucking heads explode. as long as the games are fun to watch, who fucking cares?
Baseball fans.
 
#23
paulbunyon said:
Thats why I have mixed emotions on this. On one hand its the athlete's body and if they want to poison themselves and play Russian roulette with all kinds of dangerous substances then so be it but on the other hand, sports are so important in this day and age (and mean something to a lot of us) that the idea that there should be a level playing field is certainly a legitimate argument. If not then all sports would have as much legitimacy as pro wrestling does.

Btw, the NFL doesn't only test for steroids.

to me, this is part of the problem. i understand the not liking cheaters part, but why is professional sports actually important to anyone? to me, it's just another form of entertainment. you think any of these guys, owners, players, grandstanding congressmen, give a flying fuck about us or what we think? i doubt it. there are plenty more important things, life altering things, to worry about than whether some billionaire athlete is shortening his life to hit a few more homeruns. just my two cents.
 
#24
Paul Bunyon,

There is no doubt that steroids apparently made a big difference in Barry Bonds' physique. But I doubt that the steroids improved his eyesight or bat speed.

The drugs did make him more muscular, which allowed him to drive the ball more.

But he still had to make contact.

I don't think his homerun total deserves an asterik any more than Hank Aaron's or Roger Maris' does.

However, to be honest, I am reacting to all of the nastiness being directed at Bonds. Before all of this frenzy, I couldn't care less.

But all this mention of Babe Ruth got me ticked off because invoking Ruth instead of the great Hank Aaron is a slight to both Hammerin' Hank and Bonds.

It's as if these two baseball greats don't matter to most of the people bashing Bonds.
 
#26
lamont5123 said:
argleby,

You need to grow up and stop using juvenile names.

You lost me as you started name calling.

Next.
Lamont,

You need to stop ducking my posts. That's two so far in this thread, nice job.

Why don't you spare us your whining and address what I wrote? Answer one of my questions. Like, why would anyone support a blatant and unrepentant cheater like Barry Bonds?
 
#27
lamont5123 said:
Paul Bunyon,

There is no doubt that steroids apparently made a big difference in Barry Bonds' physique. But I doubt that the steroids improved his eyesight or bat speed.

The drugs did make him more muscular, which allowed him to drive the ball more.

But he still had to make contact.
Contact that would have resulted in a lot of long fly balls if he hadn't been taking steroids and HGH. Why can't you get that through your head? Look at his season records. He became a completely different player at the age of 35, an age when almost all players face declining skills.

That's because he took steroids and HGH and God knows what else. Iow, he cheated. Why can't you understand that?

I don't think his homerun total deserves an asterik any more than Hank Aaron's or Roger Maris' does.
Neither Hank Aaron or Roger Maris cheated, obviously they don't deserve an asterisk. Bonds did.

However, to be honest, I am reacting to all of the nastiness being directed at Bonds. Before all of this frenzy, I couldn't care less.
That's because you're not a baseball fan. Which explains why you think Bonds is so swell.

Bonds cheated, period. He's taking credit for a record he achieved through dishonest means, and he's lying about it. He deserves every bit of nastiness directed at him.

But all this mention of Babe Ruth got me ticked off because invoking Ruth instead of the great Hank Aaron is a slight to both Hammerin' Hank and Bonds.
No it's not, dunce. Bonds just broke Ruth's record, that's why everyone's making that comparison. How could you miss that?

It's as if these two baseball greats don't matter to most of the people bashing Bonds.
It's amazing how you still don't get it. Bonds cheated. He doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as players like Aaron, Ruth or Maris.

He deserves to be thrown out of the game.
 
#28
lamont5123 said:
Paul Bunyon,

There is no doubt that steroids apparently made a big difference in Barry Bonds' physique. But I doubt that the steroids improved his eyesight or bat speed.

The drugs did make him more muscular, which allowed him to drive the ball more.

But he still had to make contact.

I don't think his homerun total deserves an asterik any more than Hank Aaron's or Roger Maris' does.

However, to be honest, I am reacting to all of the nastiness being directed at Bonds. Before all of this frenzy, I couldn't care less.

But all this mention of Babe Ruth got me ticked off because invoking Ruth instead of the great Hank Aaron is a slight to both Hammerin' Hank and Bonds.

It's as if these two baseball greats don't matter to most of the people bashing Bonds.
Lamont--
Ask Gavy about his cousin's experiences with Bonds from years ago. He was a jerk then and he's still a jerk now. Even without the steroid issue, he'd still be a very despised person because he's an a-hole. This has been common knowledge for years.

Argle--
You know I respect you greatly and mostly agree with your sentiments but Lamont is not a dunce. I know him personally and he is one of the nicest people you'd ever meet. I just don't share his enthusiasm for Bonds. Lets not take this stuff too personally.
 
#29
argleby said:
Lamont,

You need to stop ducking my posts. That's two so far in this thread, nice job.

Why don't you spare us your whining and address what I wrote? Answer one of my questions. Like, why would anyone support a blatant and unrepentant cheater like Barry Bonds?

He won't answer because he cannot. Lamont even contradicted himself in his post
Lamont wrote:
"The drugs did make him more muscular, which allowed him to drive the ball more."

And your reply which I cannot add too since it right on the money:
Contact that would have resulted in a lot of long fly balls if he hadn't been taking steroids and HGH. Why can't you get that through your head? Look at his season records. He became a completely different player at the age of 35, an age when almost all players face declining skills.

That's because he took steroids and HGH and God knows what else. Iow, he cheated.


Lamont is just doing this to get a rise out of all of us because nobody could be that blantantly ignorant.
 
#30
paulbunyon said:
Argle--
You know I respect you greatly and mostly agree with your sentiments but Lamont is not a dunce. I know him personally and he is one of the nicest people you'd ever meet. I just don't share his enthusiasm for Bonds. Lets not take this stuff too personally.
All right, Paul, I'll take your word for it and lay off. Btw, I've read and respected your posts as well.

However, what daddycool wrote in the post following yours is true - Lamont started this thread just to get a rise out of people (i.e. baseball fans). He shouldn't start whining just because it worked.
 
#33
argleby said:
All right, Paul, I'll take your word for it and lay off. Btw, I've read and respected your posts as well.

However, what daddycool wrote in the post following yours is true - Lamont started this thread just to get a rise out of people (i.e. baseball fans). He shouldn't start whining just because it worked.
Yeah, Argle and Daddy, Lamont's a real cool guy in real life like I said but you guys are right, he's playing devil's advocate with us and is defending Bonds because he knows that most people are against him.
 
#34
paulbunyon said:
Yeah, Argle and Daddy, Lamont's a real cool guy in real life like I said but you guys are right, he's playing devil's advocate with us and is defending Bonds because he knows that most people are against him.
In other words he has the mentality of a 12 year old?
 
#36
paulbunyon said:
Yeah, Argle and Daddy, Lamont's a real cool guy in real life like I said but you guys are right, he's playing devil's advocate with us and is defending Bonds because he knows that most people are against him.

I think what people get so upset about besides the fact he is cheating his way to the home run record is that if left well enough alone, he would have hit over 500 homeruns or maybe close to 600, but he wanted the record. He was also an 8 time all-star, gold glove winner etc. He HAD accolades already and probably would have been in the HOF before he started juicing, but all that wasn't enough for him. Plus the fact that he is one of the bigger assholes the game has seen if not the biggest.

Why do you think people are not making a big deal out of Giambi anymore, one he is not in the record race ,but he apologozed and he IS a nice guy. Its hard to be mad at a nice guy, who is nice to the fans.
 
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#37
argleby said:
It's amazing how you still don't get it. Bonds cheated. He doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as players like Aaron, Ruth or Maris.

He deserves to be thrown out of the game.
If every player who ever used a substance that may have enhanced his ability to play the game of baseball (all cheaters, right?) was thrown out of major league baseball, there wouldn't be many players left..hitters AND pitchers alike...Bonds is bearing the brunt of this b/c he's high profile and is nearing the hallowed records of baseball...get over it and let's get on with the game!
 
#38
It's said that upwards of 80-90% of baseball players in the 60's, 70's and 80's used amphetamines (known as "greenies" around the league) on a daily basis. I read an interview with Tony Gwynn a year or two back where he pretty much acknowledged this though he said the numbers were probably closer to 50% these days. There was also an HBO special on this issue around the same time as Gwynns interview.

So it is safe to say that a vast majority have used something to pick them up in the dog days of summer when 'days off' are far and few between.

Interesting that MLB had flatly refused all govt and private efforts to instill an amphetamine testing policy.
 
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#39
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2003/04/23/SP160366.DTL

Gwynn targets amphetamines
Estimates half of position players use 'greenies'



Jose Canseco came first. Then Ken Caminiti and David Wells. Now comes Tony Gwynn, the latest player/ex-player to go public about rampant drug use in major-league baseball.

Gwynn, considered an exemplary citizen and future Hall of Famer, adds much credibility to the list. But unlike the others, who focused mostly on widespread steroid use, Gwynn addressed amphetamines and estimated that 50 percent of position players regularly use "greenies."

"People might think there is a steroid problem in baseball, but it's nowhere near the other problem; the other, it's a rampant problem," Gwynn was quoted as saying in Tuesday's New York Times.

"Guys feel like steroids are cheating and greenies aren't."

Greenies -- capsules that provide a pick-me-up while potentially increasing heart rates, blood pressure and respiration to unsafe levels -- have been in major-league clubhouses for decades. Pete Rose admitted using them in a 1979 Playboy interview. Recent use, however, has been overshadowed by the steroid craze and baseball's new steroid-testing program.

"Sooner or later," Gwynn said, "it's going to get out that there's a greenie problem, and it's a huge one."

The Times also reported that some players are at odds with their union for approving a soft steroid-testing plan that has little or no consequences for players using artificial muscle enhancers.

The comments from Gwynn, an eight-time batting champion with the Padres who succeeded despite being portly -- as opposed to the common chiseled frames of today -- struck a nerve in a baseball community that too often ignores players using dangerous drugs.

"I have a son who plays baseball," said Giants manager Felipe Alou, father of Cubs outfielder Moises Alou, "and I hope he's not one of the 50 percent. To me, it's not an issue, but I have to say that if a player of stature knows a thing like that is going on, he should speak up a little more."

Giants shortstop Rich Aurilia said of Gwynn's claim: "It's hard to make judgments in percentages. What right would I have to make a judgment on 29 other teams and the number of people doing one thing or another when I'm not around 29 other teams? Maybe that was the sense Tony got with the team he was with."

Outfielder Marvin Benard was more direct, saying, "That's a damn shame, guys coming out after they retire saying stuff. I've got a lot of respect for Tony, but why didn't he say what he said when he was playing?"

Oakland's Eric Chavez has known Gwynn for several years, having attended high school in San Diego County, but doesn't appreciate Gwynn's sudden candidness.

"It's funny how these guys leave the game and then say something that ticks me off," Chavez said. "If you want to say something, say it when you're playing. And these (estimated) numbers . . . how do you know, really?"

One veteran player interviewed by The Chronicle said he thinks greenie use in the majors exceeds 50 percent. He also explained how they're used.

"A half-hour before a game, a guy can take it with a little coffee," the player said. "In the old days, a guy would take it if he's tired. Now it's an everyday thing, to get ready for the game.

"Mostly, hitters take it. It's tough to pitch on the bean, but guys do it, mostly relievers. They have to wait around.

"Guys get introduced to it over the counter. Then they're hooked. They need something stronger. Then they turn to greenies. It's a typical drug habit."

Under the new labor agreement, testing for amphetamines is not mandatory.

"When I was in college, I took Supac, which is like Exedrine, I think, and I think it has ephedra or something in it, to kind of get me up," A's pitcher Barry Zito said. "Now I don't need a boost because there's enough intensity, but for an everyday player, I can imagine they might need something. I've never seen any adverse effects, and if you take legal supplements to do it, that should be OK. Everyone needs their little fix."
 
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#40
Ozzy said:
It's said that upwards of 80-90% of baseball players in the 60's, 70's and 80's used amphetamines (known as "greenies" around the league) on a daily basis. I read an interview with Tony Gwynn a year or two back where he pretty much acknowledged this though he said the numbers were probably closer to 50% these days. There was also an HBO special on this issue around the same time as Gwynns interview.

So it is safe to say that a vast majority have used something to pick them up in the dog days of summer when 'days off' are far and few between.

Interesting that MLB had flatly refused all govt and private efforts to instill an amphetamine testing policy.
Big Ditto. Amphetamines are the bigger problem. Although I would argue and some will disagree, that with Amphetamines they help a player differently than steroids do. If a player is tired and at 85%, he pops a greenie and he is back to 100%. But at 100% he is still the same player. If he hit the ball 380 feet before at 100%, after popping a greenie and getting back to 100% he is still going to hit the ball 380 feet because that is his maximuim potential. Not like steroids where you get to be a differnet player over what your 100% maximuim potential.
 
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