Burner Phones

[MayorSimpleton]

FYI most recorded systems are written over in less than a few months. No one typically is keeping video for years.

 

[WizardOfAhhs]

FYI most recorded systems are written over in less than a few months. No one typically is keeping video for years.

Exactly. Store security cams are almost exclusively used for loss prevention. If they got through the week without a theft, they're not keeping the video to see who bought what when. There's a cost to that, and from the store's point of view, a cost with no benefit. They just don't do it.

 

[WizardOfAhhs]

Hey Mayor, you don't think I was too harsh on the guy, do you? I mean, I'm trying to cultivate a kinder, more gentler side...

 

[captain_williams]

I’m not interested in going head to head with the guys in the shiny shoes, so if you are looking for specific types of “proof”, you will have to find that yourself. As I suppose the only TRUE proof is witnessing firsthand.

To answer Pokler, it really comes down to logistics. As I said, I wouldn't dare delve into nation state type activity, but as far as we are concerned, ask yourself... where did I buy that burner? Was it a big box store? Did the store have a camera? Burned... did I take it in my car with me to the hotel? Burned.. or did I try to be extra smart and take a train? How did I pay for that train fare? Cash, well done! Except for the cameras on the trains and at the stations. Or did I walk past that store that uses facial recognition? Burned.. as you work out every detail and possibility, you see how difficult it becomes.. Easiest way would be to monger for only the one day a year that I could wear a guy fox mask all day, sit on the subway with nothing in your pocket but cash, and not have any1 take a second glance at u. Happy Halloween.

LE is not going to go to those extremes to catch a random dude who has paid for pussy when there's millions of ways to catch someone with almost zero resource outlays

 

[vad1]

Anyone watched "Person of Interest", starring Jim Caviezel?

Some of the conversation below reminded me of that TV serial ...

V

 

[HobbyistZero]

Let me just start by saying nobody's here to start an argument or waste their time trolling on the internet. I may get a little confrontational when I see stupid, and I may see it pretty damn often, but that's not what this is about. Those of us who value our privacy and have much to lose take this issue of burners very seriously. We rely on them to put a wall between us and our activities, and to keep the two solidly separate. And when pokler or I or anyone else throws out the question "How and why are we wrong to rely on our burners" we do so with the thought that there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of UG readers, and that at least some of you guys have enough knowledge about communications or IT to be able to shed light on the subject. Real light, based on real information. Because if we're doing something wrong, or need to make changes, or are mistakenly placing our trust in a technology that's going to fail us, that knowledge is far more important to me than who gives a better $20 BJ or who's pussy tastes like month old applesauce. But all we ever get is ridiculous statements based on bullshit websites or from watching too much friggin' TV. And for the latest example, I present to you....HobbyistZero.
Are you really that goddam simple and paranoid that you think every fucking item you ever bought at BestBuy that has a serial number is somehow traceable back to you simply because BestBuy has security cameras? Do you honestly think that there's some master fucking database out there that scanned your face when you walked in, matched it to your name and address, and then linked that up to the serial number of that 42" flat screen you paid cash for at the register? And then kept that data on file for, oh I don't know, years and years into the future (my burner is 2 years old now)? That the mere placement of that turned off phone in my car somehow notifies LE of not just where the phone is, but the exact make, model and plate # of the car that I'm in so they'll know who to look for? And I'm still struggling to even wrap my head around on what planet walking through a LIRR station with my phone in my pocket sends some signal to their security cams that I'm the guy with that phone and they'll not only be able to ID my phone, but also me personally, and then store that info for who knows how long, and then on some far off date in the future when LE somehow miraculously knew I was there they'll be able to pinpoint when and where I was so they can retrieve that cam footage...
Turn off the TV, man.
I've written before on here about how to properly set one up. I've written about the benefits of caution, and how a little paranoia is a good thing. I don't flippantly think anything is foolproof, nor do I think I know everything (indeed, just the opposite. I"m asking and looking for someone to show me what I"m doing wrong, so I can fix it). But this fucking Johnny Rocket bullshit that every time I wipe my ass LE knows whether I went front to back or back to front is just frustrating. If you don't know anything about them, then don't say anything. Don't dig up links to BS websites that deal in paranoia so they can sell me something I don't need, as others have done, or spout some half-assed Orwellian bullshit that every security camera out there knows who I am and what's in my pocket and keeps that info forever and can pinpoint it and retrieve it on demand even when nothing exists on the planet that ties my name to that phone...
But hey, other than that, thanks for your contribution. It was fun.

Oh Wizard... I wasn’t even going to respond, in fear of having to sift through your mangled interpretations in yet another 10 page egotistical rant. But to shed a little clarity for those interested, I shall..

I was merely stating the POSSIBILITY of these HYPOTHETICAL situations. LE may not be using these types of resources all the time, but the possibility remains nonetheless.

To make this a little more realistic, let’s add some context. Let’s say God forbid, a provider was murdered in a hotel room and her phone was left at the site. How comfortable would one be knowing ones burner number was in her phone? What if you were the last person to call her? You can bet that 42” Samsung Mr. Shiny Shoes will be looking into who’s number that is. Maybe they still won’t use all those resources, but maybe they will. Now maybe your not just an exposed John, but a suspect in a homocide.

Also, for those who don’t already know (Wizard), they absolutely have facial recognition in certain big box stores. It is publicly available info (I assume as a liability disclosure). They use them to scan the demographic of the pedestrian traffic (both in the store and outside of it) in order to market appropriately. They may keep these records for a max of a few months, this is true. But in a high priority investigation, that new “anonymous” burner phone you bought last month just became not so anonymous.

Not so far fetched now, is it gentlemen? Well, have to call it a night, CSI Miami is on. Good evening, all.

 

[genius]

....I was merely stating the POSSIBILITY of these HYPOTHETICAL situations. LE may not be using these types of resources all the time, but the possibility remains nonetheless.

To make this a little more realistic, let’s add some context. Let’s say God forbid, a provider was murdered in a hotel room and her phone was left at the site. How comfortable would one be knowing ones burner number was in her phone? What if you were the last person to call her? You can bet that 42” Samsung Mr. Shiny Shoes will be looking into who’s number that is. Maybe they still won’t use all those resources, but maybe they will. Now maybe your not just an exposed John, but a suspect in a homicide. ......Not so far fetched now, is it gentlemen? Well, have to call it a night, CSI Miami is on. Good evening, all.

I posted this (#44 this thread 2 years ago ):

"As far as a big deal - yeah it is lot of work for LE to search videos, credit cards etc. used with your phone for simple prostitution matters and very unlikely they would spend the resources. But ( and this is a real big but), sometimes prostitutes are heavy drug users and end up dead thru the drugs one way or another. Sometimes they end up dead from some nut case customer. Sometimes the person selling her the drugs ends up dead and her # is on his call list and LE searches her phone that has your # on it.

This is not a once in a century occurrence.

Once someone turns up dead LE is going to contact a lot of people in search of leads. Even though you have air tight proof that you were not in anyway involved do you (perhaps with your SO or wife standing by) really want to be involved with a friendly chat with LE when they come a knocking at your home for you to explain why your # was found?"

 

[WizardOfAhhs]

To make this a little more realistic, let’s add some context. Let’s say God forbid, a provider was murdered in a hotel room and her phone was left at the site. How comfortable would one be knowing ones burner number was in her phone? What if you were the last person to call her? You can bet that 42” Samsung Mr. Shiny Shoes will be looking into who’s number that is. Maybe they still won’t use all those resources, but maybe they will. Now maybe your not just an exposed John, but a suspect in a homocide.

And that, Mr. Zero, is exactly the point. My # turns up in some girl's phone. I sure don't want it to be my real #. But if you would be so kind as to read post # 137 on how I set my burner up, can you tell me how LE is going to connect it to me? That was the original question pokler asked. That's the information I'm hoping someone with knowledge will share, or confirm as I hope that there is no connection.

Also, for those who don’t already know (Wizard), they absolutely have facial recognition in certain big box stores. It is publicly available info (I assume as a liability disclosure). They use them to scan the demographic of the pedestrian traffic (both in the store and outside of it) in order to market appropriately. They may keep these records for a max of a few months, this is true. But in a high priority investigation, that new “anonymous” burner phone you bought last month just became not so anonymous.

Yes, loss prevention facial recognition software exists. Perhaps some instruction on how it works might help: Person A gets busted for shoplifting. Person A's mug shot gets scanned into a LP data base that is shared with participating stores. Person A walks into said store and bells and whistles go off.
You see Zero, the operative word in facial recognition is recognition. It has to recognize who you are, because your face has already been scanned, entered, and given a name. Mine never has. There is no master worldwide database out there that simply knows everyone's name and face and every time you pass a camera your ID is logged in somewhere. Not yet anyway.

 

[genius]

....... the operative word in facial recognition is recognition. It has to recognize who you are, because your face has already been scanned, entered, and given a name. Mine never has. There is no master worldwide database out there that simply knows everyone's name and face and every time you pass a camera your ID is logged in somewhere. Not yet anyway.

So you are sure about your statement "Not yet anyway"?
I don't know but consider this:

Every state has name and photo on drivers license and my passport has name and photo. My car plates can be read by plate scanners that can tie my plate # to my name (article in today's ND says that there are hundreds of plate scanners in NYC). Thus I think it is reasonable to assume there is a high probability that my ID and face is in (at least) one database available to various gov't's agencies.

Ya know those electronic signs on major highways that say "Travel time to xyz 15 min" - they calculate travel time by reading E-Z pass ID when passing the sign and again when passing xyz. My E-Z

 

[WizardOfAhhs]

So you are sure about your statement "Not yet anyway"?
I don't know but consider this:

Every state has name and photo on drivers license and my passport has name and photo. My car plates can be read by plate scanners that can tie my plate # to my name (article in today's ND says that there are hundreds of plate scanners in NYC). Thus I think it is reasonable to assume there is a high probability that my ID and face is in (at least) one database available to various gov't's agencies.

Ya know those electronic signs on major highways that say "Travel time to xyz 15 min" - they calculate travel time by reading E-Z pass ID when passing the sign and again when passing xyz. My E-Z

Hell no. I’m not sure of anything. That’s why I asked for someone with actual knowledge and information to join the discussion and shed some light on what the reality is, not just add more speculation and maybes. Obviously, I’m well aware that the DMV and the State Dept have my name and photo. In my case, the FBI even has my fingerprints from a background security check done 30 years ago. I’ve no doubt at all that the technology exists to match that with a current captured image. What apparently neither of us knows is under what circumstances that could or would be done. But let me ask you this, since you posed the hypothetical, and in the context of Zero’s allegation: Do you actually think it’s likely that BestBuy has a real time connection to the state dept server containing my passport photo, such that they’ll know my ID when I get to the register to buy my $20 TracFone? I certainly don’t. And I don’t honestly think you do either.
Oh, and continuing in the spirit of honesty, let me add the remainder of the DOT statement regarding their monitoring of EZPass readers, which I guess you chose to leave out, lest anyone now start panicking about that too: “EZ-Pass tag ID’s are scrambled by the transmit system and only a record of the trip by an anonymous vehicle is stored. Individual vehicle information is not stored and/or made available to NYSDOT, nor used for law enforcement purposes. The scrambled tag information is deleted after the vehicle has left the highway”.

 

[genius]

Do you actually think it’s likely that BestBuy has a real time connection to the state dept server containing my passport photo, such that they’ll know my ID when I get to the register to buy my $20 TracFone?

IMHO, under current law they don't have to, there's nothing in it for them and would cause them to lose sales. So I would say no.

Oh, and continuing in the spirit of honesty, let me add the remainder of the DOT statement regarding their monitoring of EZPass readers, which I guess you chose to leave out, lest anyone now start panicking about that too: “EZ-Pass tag ID’s are scrambled by the transmit system and only a record of the trip by an anonymous vehicle is stored. Individual vehicle information is not stored and/or made available to NYSDOT, nor used for law enforcement purposes. The scrambled tag information is deleted after the vehicle has left the highway”.

Yup - that's the way things are now. However it doesn't take a huge technological leap to record info as the EZ pass collection process (antennas, receivers, network to interconnect it all in order to calculate drive times) is set up if a change in the law happens to record the data.

I would like to point out that (at least as of a few years ago) ALL emails from outside the US coming in went thru two processing centers, were recorded and searched for key text/words that may be of interest to US intelligence agencies. Foreign nationals do not have the same rights as US citizens and I assume when the emails were determined to be between US citzens that the info was discarded.

 

[MayorSimpleton]

IMHO, under current law they don't have to, there's nothing in it for them and would cause them to lose sales. So I would say no.


Yup - that's the way things are now. However it doesn't take a huge technological leap to record info as the EZ pass collection process (antennas, receivers, network to interconnect it all in order to calculate drive times) is set up if a change in the law happens to record the data.

I would like to point out that (at least as of a few years ago) ALL emails from outside the US coming in went thru two processing centers, were recorded and searched for key text/words that may be of interest to US intelligence agencies. Foreign nationals do not have the same rights as US citizens and I assume when the emails were determined to be between US citzens that the info was discarded.

They used to give a bag that was probably a static sensitive protective type that blocked the RF so your tag wouldn't trigger a payment when you were paying cash. It's as simple as using that bag or any other foil lined bag.

 

[WizardOfAhhs]

Apparently I may have to answer my own request for info, but in order to do that let me throw this out there: Does anyone have any actual, useful, and accurate information about the NYPD's new "Stingray" system?

 

[Mr. Joyboy]

Apparently I may have to answer my own request for info, but in order to do that let me throw this out there: Does anyone have any actual, useful, and accurate information about the NYPD's new "Stingray" system?

Wizard, Since you already know about "Stingray," I'm not sure if this will be news to you, but this is a link to an article in the Daily News about it http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nypd-stingray-tech-spy-new-yorker-cell-phones-article-1.2992708 and this graphic does a pretty good job of explaining it.

Bottom line is that cops can find you and see who you're communicating with, but they can't read the contents of your calls or texts. I imagine that's a 4th amendment issue and an appropriate court order would remedy that. The last panel seems to imply that the version sold to the Feds and military may not have that restriction.

 

[WizardOfAhhs]

Joyboy, thanks, that's pretty much what I'd heard and read, but graphics are always an easier way to see things. What I also heard was that the version the NYPD got, through their Joint Terrorist Task Force with the FBI, does allow real time intercept of phone calls and texts, and that it picks up every phone within range, not just the target phone. So potentially anyone using their phone for anything could be tracked and recorded. The issues that come to mind first are A) how could/would LE sort through that volume of data/voice to pick out my conversation and decided it's one they want to pursue?, and B) since my phone is anonymous, just picking up the content of the call wouldn't lead directly to me. But, once they have my #, I wonder how difficult it would be to just follow it until eventually they catch up with me once I'm stationary at home or work. But then again, I wonder if having the phone turned off except for those times I"m actually using it for calls and texts (which is what I do) would prevent that. A lot to consider there, but no question this is a big step closer to Orwell's Big Brother.

 

[TheRicker]

Joyboy, thanks, that's pretty much what I'd heard and read, but graphics are always an easier way to see things. What I also heard was that the version the NYPD got, through their Joint Terrorist Task Force with the FBI, does allow real time intercept of phone calls and texts, and that it picks up every phone within range, not just the target phone. So potentially anyone using their phone for anything could be tracked and recorded. The issues that come to mind first are A) how could/would LE sort through that volume of data/voice to pick out my conversation and decided it's one they want to pursue?, and B) since my phone is anonymous, just picking up the content of the call wouldn't lead directly to me. But, once they have my #, I wonder how difficult it would be to just follow it until eventually they catch up with me once I'm stationary at home or work. But then again, I wonder if having the phone turned off except for those times I"m actually using it for calls and texts (which is what I do) would prevent that. A lot to consider there, but no question this is a big step closer to Orwell's Big Brother.

I have a hard time believing NYPD would utilize this system to catch a John / provider. I'm sure it's very expensive to run. Plus it states the Joint terrorism task force paid for it, last I checked they don't do prostitution. That's public morals / vice. I don't think even the human trafficking angle would fall under joint terrorism task force.

 

[WizardOfAhhs]

I have a hard time believing NYPD would utilize this system to catch a John / provider. I'm sure it's very expensive to run. Plus it states the Joint terrorism task force paid for it, last I checked they don't do prostitution. That's public morals / vice. I don't think even the human trafficking angle would fall under joint terrorism task force.

Yeah, I don't think we'd be the first target they'd go after either, certainly not for just patronizing a prostitute. And apparently they've had it for awhile now. Today's Newsday says they've had it since '08, and used it to solve "murders, rapes, robbery, assault, even missing persons". So it looks like they use it for more than just terrorism cases. So that idea that we're insulated from being contacted if they find our burner # in a girl whose been hurt's phone may not be as secure as we thought. I could see them using it to try and locate every phone that was in touch with her. Maybe. Who knows.

 

[NankerPheldge]

I'm not sure that the PoPo had this stingray equipment back in 2009, but they did use towers and triangulation in this case
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/nyregion/04littlejohn.html?referer=

Specifically:
The prosecution also relied on cellphone data to document Mr. Littlejohn’s whereabouts in the days surrounding Ms. St. Guillen’s murder.

My advice - don't murder a provider and you "should" be ok. That would be two offenses at one time. Bad idea

 

[HobbyistZero]

Since a comment was made in another thread about "security holes" in burner phones, I'm taking it over here, rather than continue the convo there and take that thread off topic. I'll assume the phrase "security hole" means that LE could find me via my burner phone, which was:
Purchased 20+ miles from home, in a chain drug store, a number of years ago. I paid cash, using no discount cards or anything else linked to my real ID. I also purchased a 90 minute card, again paying cash. I went to a pubic library, and activated it there. No ID was required to access the internet, and no personal info was required to activate the phone (just the serial # of the phone itself, and the PIN # from the minutes card). When I add minutes, I again buy the cards anonymously, paying cash, and activate them using the phone itself and the PIN # from the card. The phone is rarely turned on, and almost never from home (assuming, in my most paranoid moments, that each phone has a unique ID of some kind, and that it could be physically located via whatever cell tower I'm connecting through). I only turn it on to use it, and then I'm usually in my car, often moving. Rarely, as I said, from home or at work.
So, in my mind, nothing at all connects my real ID to this particular phone #. Even if the # turned up on someone else's call log, and even if LE were able to determine what tower had been used to place the call, that tower most likely would be miles from any place I frequent. Since the phone is rarely turned on, I see no way that I could be physically located through it either (In a practical sense. I'm not going to presume I know what the NSA is capable of, but I'm talking real world here. I'm not out blowing up buildings. And I'm just not paranoid enough to think the NSA gets involved in busting johns).
Sixtyyearold....if you have expertise in this area, or even a plausible theory on what I'm missing or why I"m wrong, please share it here. (And we all know there's plenty of guys out there who'll buy a burner and then activate it from their home phone or computer, or use their credit card to buy additional time. In those cases, the burner serves no purpose other than to keep the call/text logs off their regular phone and hidden from their SO and avoid unwanted calls/texts. LE could find them in a heartbeat if they wanted to). I would like to know the flaw in my scenario, since many of us do it exactly as I've outlined here, and have for years.

Wizard, I didn't forget about it. Please excuse the late reply. Yes, this is the reasonable way to set it up IMO. The most paranoid can always take it further, but for 99% of us, it is good. Just keep being careful how you use it. I'm not sure exactly what i can post as far as the proof you request. One, what would u consider proof? And two, what will the mods allow? I looked around the site and seems certain links are not allowed. Although, I think i can safely say that the OG Snowden documentary is a great place to start. Snapshots and narration about International database facilities that hold data indefinetly, to say the least. True or Lies? Only you can decide for yourself. Merry Christmas, all!

 

[Stockbroker]

I just got a new phone and first thing is installing all my standard innocuous apps, like Gmail, Google voice, Google maps, when I noticed that everything is freaking tracked, saved in history and synced. And when u try to be sly and disable some of these, the app doesn't work or becomes very inconvenient...so privacy is a concern

But anyways I have Google voice, one of the earlier accounts that still let u call and text directly, Seems new voice accts aren't as capable. When I search for another independent app, I notice they all require virtually enough permissions and access to qualify as a spy app (i.e. permission to record audio, access to read and edit texts, media, photos, etc)

Do u guys here know or use a free text/voice app that doesn't require that many permissions?