SUVs

[Reel Deal]

Originally posted by lqd
Marc: Though you are correct about much of the oil coming from other countries and a current shift in the US policy on where we get our oil in the future; 525 million barrels a day from Iraq and 1.5 billion barrels a day from Saudi Arabia is not insignificant.

The Arab Dillema:

We have access to more oil from non-Arab sources than the Arabs have access to non-Western markets.

And since the Arab Royals are totally hooked on Western $$$, the probability of them cutting off their nose in spite of their face and cutting off our supply is lower than the probability of Skagen and Stecchino subscribing to The American Spectator, or becoming a Sustaining Life Member of the NRA...

 

[Reel Deal]

Originally posted by laudanum
Seeing threads go out of control, especailly off topic threads, is all part of the fun.

As far as safety, the book/review says that the conceptions about SUVs being safer are illusional.

----From the review-----
As Bradsher details, because of their weight, shoddy brakes, and off-road tires, SUVs handle poorly in bad weather and have trouble stopping on slick roads. What's more, they're generally so poorly designed as not to be capable of carrying much cargo, despite the space. A contributing factor in the Ford Explorer-Firestone tire debacle was that drivers weren't told that their Explorers shouldn't carry any more weight than a Ford Taurus. The extra weight routinely piled in these big cars stressed the tires in a way that made them fall apart faster and contributed to the spate of rollover deaths.
----SNIP----------------

Their occupancy death rate is "6 percent higher than it is for cars--8 percent higher in the largest SUVs."

I love the fact that for ecery one life saved by an SUV, that five other lives will be taken. This of course prompts people to buy even bigger SUVs.

I would like to read this entire source document.

Also in terms of child safety, it seems that there "SUV drivers have a troubling tendency to run over their own kids. Just recently, in October, a wealthy Long Island doctor made headlines after he ran over and killed his two-year-old in the driveway with his BMW X5. He told police he thought he'd hit the curb. "

Nice anecdote. Where are the statistics to prove this?

I think that people should have a choice of what to ride/drive.
But these small trucks should be treated as such, with higher safery regulations and fuel efficencies.

They ARE treated as trucks.

Also since they are more likely to kill car drivers, they should be insured accordingly. They should pay higher premiums for the higher amont of damage they cause. Car owners should not have to subsidize this.

"They" the trucks? Or "they" the drivers? A driver should pay higher premiums, not an object. Besides, you don't think the sharp-penciled acturaries at insurance companies don't already do this? You think they'd miss an opportunity to raise a premium? I don't think so...

 

[SkellyChamp]

Originally posted by Reel Deal


"They" the trucks? Or "they" the drivers? A driver should pay higher premiums, not an object. Besides, you don't think the sharp-penciled acturaries at insurance companies don't already do this? You think they'd miss an opportunity to raise a premium? I don't think so...

RD - Seems you're making a distinction without a difference.

 

[Reel Deal]

Originally posted by SkellyChamp


RD - Seems you're making a distinction without a difference.

Not at all.

I have a near perfect driving record. Never had an insurance claim, and one minor ticket (4 years ago) in over 34 years of driving. I drive an SUV, a serious bike, and high-performance sports cars (one has over 510h.p.). My insurance rates reflect my driving record.

If a person has a poor driving record, he should be (and, by-in-large is) underwritten accordingly.

But what I read is some sort of "penalty" for owning/driving a certain type of vehicle. Sort of a PC "sin tax". I totally disagree with this.

As I stated before, I am sure the insurance companies have the whole thing mathematically figured out.

 

[justme]

laud - Good post.

The BMW X5 anecdote was particularly chilling. Last thanksgiving, one of my best friends held his two year old cousin as he bled to death, his skull totally crushed, after the child's aunt accidentally backed over him in a Suburban. The reprocussions of the event subsequently rippled throughout his entire extended family and has created a horrible rift. My friend stayed away from the conflict, but of course dealt with his own significant share of trauma. I would also like to know if there is a study substantiating this claim.

 

[justme]

oops

 

[Reel Deal]

Originally posted by justme
laud - Good post.

The BMW X5 anecdote was particularly chilling. Last thanksgiving, one of my best friends held his two year old cousin as he bled to death, his skull totally crushed, after the child's aunt accidentally backed over him in a Suburban. The reprocussions of the event subsequently rippled throughout his entire extended family and has created a horrible rift. My friend stayed away from the conflict, but of course dealt with his own significant share of trauma. I would also like to know if there is a study substantiating this claim.

C'Mon. That could have happened in a KIA.

The fault is with the DRIVER, NOT the vehicle. I have a hard time believing the Suburban started up on its own with malevolence in its heart, saw a small child, aimed itself, and attacked its prey.

Sheesh. Maybe I should start the National SUV Association (NSA). The motto: SUV's don't kill people. People kill people.

BTW-who was the moron who was not keeping their eye on a 2 year old as someone was driving a car? Try convincing me that the horrible death of that child was not the responsibility an adult.

 

[pjorourke]

Skelly & RD are both right

Insurance rates reflect both the driving experience of drivers and the cost or repair/claims properties of their vehicles.

 

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by Reel Deal
Try convincing me that the horrible death of that child was not the responsibility an adult.

Hillary!!! Your village is calling you.

 

[justme]

Originally posted by Reel Deal
Sheesh. Maybe I should start the National SUV Association (NSA). The motto: SUV's don't kill people. People kill people.

BTW-who was the moron who was not keeping their eye on a 2 year old as someone was driving a car? Try convincing me that the horrible death of that child was not the responsibility an adult.

I wouldn't want to imply that I was absolving any of the adults there of the responsibility of caring for a child. But the fact remains that there is a much larger blind spot behind a Suburban than there is behind a Kia. Lowered visibility would contribute to greater accident rates. The fact also remains that the accident didn't happen behind a Kia.

But I'm not jumping to any conclusions. Much like the X5, this is simply anecdotal. Like I said, I would be very interested in seeing if there are statistically significant higher levels of these accidents involving SUV's than there are involving, say, sedans.

My interst in the thread was purely theoretical until laud made that post. Now I have a personal interest in seeing that study.

 

[mitchmaxx]

I have to say, many people should not drive SUVs. My wife won't get behind the wheel of my SUV. She is too small, to nervous, etc... If you can't drive a fuckin' honda, you shouldn't be driving a truck that weighs twice as much. How about having to get a seperate license to drive one? That should settle the danger issue.

Reel, what kind of sports car do you have?

 

[Reel Deal]

Originally posted by justme
But the fact remains that there is a much larger blind spot behind a Suburban than there is behind a Kia. Lowered visibility would contribute to greater accident rates.

All the more reason for the DRIVER to be the one in question, not the vehicle. As an SUV driver, I am well aware of the blind spots. I adjust my driving accordingly. Obviously, this careless person was not, not to mention the person who was supervising this poor child.

An 18 wheeler has a significant blind spot, too. Don't hear too many anecdotes about dead babies regarding them. But then again, I'll bet parents are more cautious with their children when around them.

"Dead Babies" have always been an effective rallying cry.

Whenever I hear someone use a variation of "for the children", I check my wallet and liberties...

 

[Reel Deal]

Originally posted by mitchmaxx
If you can't drive a fuckin' honda, you shouldn't be driving a truck that weighs twice as much.

If you can't drive a fuckin' Honda, you shouldn't be driving, period...

Reel, what kind of sports car do you have?

a Cobra 427s/c, and finishing the restoration of a '68 XKE Coupe. If there is an inverse relationship between car and member size, I have no dick...

 

[justme]

Originally posted by Reel Deal
An 18 wheeler has a significant blind spot, too. Don't hear too many anecdotes about dead babies regarding them.

Well, yes. That's exactly the point. 18 wheelers are deemed to be much more difficult to drive than, say, a Honda. As such, the requirements we place on the drivers of 18 wheelers, as well as the laws governing the driving of 18 wheelers are much stricter than those dealing with passenger cars.

If SUV's require that much more care in driving, perhaps they too should require a special license or license endorsement, different speed limits, and different standards in general.

 

[Reel Deal]

Originally posted by justme


Well, yes. That's exactly the point. 18 wheelers are deemed to be much more difficult to drive than, say, a Honda. As such, the requirements we place on the drivers of 18 wheelers, as well as the laws governing the driving of 18 wheelers are much stricter than those dealing with passenger cars.

If SUV's require that much more care in driving, perhaps they too should require a special license or license endorsement, different speed limits, and different standards in general.

When I get my 18 wheel SUV (with fully functioning 50 cal. automatic gun turret), I will be happy to comply with the laws necessary to drive one.

I, for one, am far less concerned with the guy driving the Mountaineer than I am with the testosterone-explosive pimple-faced 17 y.o. kid in the hopped-up low-rider Rice Rocket, the 21 y.o. babe putting on her eye-liner in traffic on the way to work in her Civic, or the 90 y.o. cotton-head driving 35 mph in the left lane of I-75 in her beige-on-beige 4-dr. '72 Valiant (the Attack Vehicle of the Gray Panthers) with 6,000 miles on it.

DRIVERS cause accidents, not vehicles.

 

[mitchmaxx]

You forgot the emergency brake between the front seats that also acts as the trigger for the missle launchers in the front grill.

 

[justme]

Originally posted by Reel Deal
DRIVERS cause accidents, not vehicles.

I agree. But since some vehicles are more difficult to drive than others, perhaps we should limit which drivers can drive them.

 

[Reel Deal]

Originally posted by justme


I agree. But since some vehicles are more difficult to drive than others, perhaps we should limit which drivers can drive them.

If your true intent is to make the streets safer, I suggest we do a better job keeping some drivers off the road, not vehicles.

justme, your statement saying SUV's are more difficult to drive, therefore not as safe, is without factual merit. Ask anyone who owns one. 90+% will tell you that they, in fact, may be even easier and safer to drive, due to ergonomics.

You want to know the most difficult cars I've ever driven? A Volvo 122s, and a Mercedes 300CD Turbodiesel. Those, my friend, were unforgiving beasts. Made the current SUV seem like a Miata...

 

[jseah]

lots of posts to comment on.......

a few points I wanted to make to address points made by others.....

1. insurance rates are already higher for SUV's than for passenger cars.......example.....my SUV is a '93....and because of the age, it does not have collision.....and the insurance on it is higher than on my 2003 Honda Civic (with collision)....

2. SUV's are more difficult to drive....partially true.....SUV's are in more accidents than "regular cars"....also partially true.....SUV's with their higher center of gravity because of the larger wheels, are inherently more top-heavy and prone to tip-overs than your run-of-the-mill passenger car......and people should be aware of that (my SUV has warning labels plastered all over the place stating this), but unfortunately too many people used to years and years of driving regular cars climb into a SUV and drive it like a regular car......which is idiotic......but this is the fault of the person sitting behind the wheel and not of the vehicle itself.....the vehicle is not the one deciding to take a reverse camber turn at 60 miles per hour. Just because you are driving in 4-wheel drive vehicle does not make you immune to slippery roads and gives you carte blanche to drive down a snow covered street at 90 miles per hour with total disregard for the driving conditions. Too many people nowadays think just because they were issued a license to drive, they are as capable behind the wheel as Mario Andretti. In my opinion, the best present you can give your 16-year old for his/her birthday is a weekend class at a defensive driving school. I passed some idiot on the NY Thruway the other day, he was in the outside lane, but for some reason he kept creeping into the middle lane, nearly hitting the car alongside him, then swings back into his lane. When I drove past him, I looked over and saw the reason why he was driving so erratically.........he had the newspaper open on the steering wheel and he was reading it while he was driving to work.

3. horror stories of children being run over in their driveway.......c'mon.....the guy thought he went over a curb????? since when the hell did he install a curb in the middle of his driveway????? this is more evidence of idiots who refuse to accept their own responsibility for their actions and try to blame someone/something else......the guy probably tried filing a lawsuit against the auto company for the wrongful death of his child too...because if they hadn't built his SUV so damn big, he would have seen his child.......I guarantee you that if you had a three year old standing up right behind any passenger car made today, the person sitting in the driver seat would not see the child since the child would be shorter than the lower edge of the rear window.

 

[Casper]

It's been shown that for handling in bad weather, a good front wheel drive car beats out a SUV.