Poker money/live games vs tournaments

Wwanderer

Kids, don't try this at home
#1
I was in LV last weekend and the beginning of the week, right around the tail end of the WSOP by coincidence, and played a few days worth of casino card room poker. Unfortunately, the number of good to excellent players relative to the number of clueless victims seemed much higher than normal except for the last day I was there, perhaps due to the crowd in town for the WSOP?

Anyway, as I have been for the past couple of years, I played a mixture of no-limit tournaments and limit money games...all Hold'em. I have been playing the latter (but often 7-card stud) for decades and have been sampling the former a bit since it became a big (TV inspired, apparently) fad. I have been trying to figure out which I like better and why, but keep coming up undecided.

Basically, the purist in me prefers the limit money games; imo they are more fundamental and better poker in the sense that they reward skill more dependably and thus, necessarily, are less dependent on luck. I suspect that the world's actual best poker players are not the tournament pros, who seem to be at least as much about being celebrities as about making money, but guys you never heard of who make a steady living out of money games. On the other hand, it is hard to deny that the tournaments are more entertaining and dramatic, both for players and spectators,...are basically more fun. After playing in a few tournaments, grinding out your profits in money games begins to feel like work in many ways.

An unfortunate aspect of mixing the two types of games is that they reward/encourage different styles of play. Thus, habits and instincts you pick up playing in tournaments serve you poorly in money games and vice versa, not universally but at least in many respects. So, if you really wanted to play as well as possible, you'd probably be better off sticking to one or the other.

Right now, of course, the tournaments are all the rage and most of the (deliciously vulnerable) poker newbies are to be found in them; however, luck is such a huge factor in a tournament that even a very good player cannot confidently expect to make money in any specific tournament even against fairly weak opposition. But if you can get such newbies, especially the ones who have grown overconfident watching TV poker, into a money game and both you and they have the patience to play for a while, a good player can nearly always walk away from the table ahead.

Anyway, fwiiw, I was ahead in my money games in LV and did OK but did not win any prizes in the tournaments; on balance I ended up just a bit in the black...but not even enough to cover my food and hotel bills.

-Ww
 
#2
a quick poll.....what do you do in this hand????

you have Ace, seven of spades, there is a small bet preflop....

you and 4 others are still in to see Ace, King Queen (2 spades). you have top pair and nut flush draw........there is a check, a pot raise then an allin reraise in front of you....you obviously have 2 options....do you call the allin bet or fold??????
 
#3
I generally don't like to go all in with a draw.. Depends on my stack I suppose. If I was short, I would pull the trigger here. If not, I'd let it go.

I was at a Taj Mahal $300 buy-in tournament in AC and came across something like this myself: AJ of clubs, I had 4 to a flush on the flop. 3 all-ins and I called.. someone had 2 pair, another had pocket QQ. I was crippled after no club came on turn and river.

I play a lot online (roughly 400 or so Sit-n-Go tournaments under my belt since april 05- $10 & $20 buy-in) and have found this format to be very profitable with a very low variance as far as bankroll swings are concerned. I make about $400 a month this way and it funds my hobby fwiw.. I only play multitable tourneys live. I've cashed several times at the Taj but it's too much work for too little pay and unless you hit it big, you're more than likely in the hole.
 

Waterclone

Go ahead. Try me.
#4
mcalandra said:
you have Ace, seven of spades, there is a small bet preflop....

you and 4 others are still in to see Ace, King Queen (2 spades). you have top pair and nut flush draw........there is a check, a pot raise then an allin reraise in front of you....you obviously have 2 options....do you call the allin bet or fold??????
Not nearly enough info.
What was the betting like pre-flop? How much is in the pot, and how much do I have? Pot odds matter.
What is my read on these other players. Are they fools who might make a play with Ax offsuit? Or make a move with 2nd pair?

Cash game or tourney?
If it's a cash game, how much am I in for already? How much do I have in my wallet to keep going if I lose?

If it's a tourney, when is it? Near the beginning? Near the bubble?
 
#5
10 players and 3rd hand of tournament. Everyone still has the initial 1,000 chips (give or take a few...) too early to read anybody.
only 1,2,and 3 take home $$$.

Blinds are 10-20 and there is about $200 in preflop with 4 players. flop is A, K, Q ....you are the button, in front of you is 1.check, then 2.raise $200, then 3. reraise allin (but the raise and the allin were just callers preflop)
.....action is to you.....there is about $1300 in the pot and your stack is $900.

Again, your hand is top pair and nut flush draw with the turn and river to come....

the way i saw it....pocket A, K, Q or big slick would have raised more than double the big blind....so my only risks are K Q or A Q. The back of my mind was worriying about J 10......
 

Waterclone

Go ahead. Try me.
#6
Yes, I am all in here. It seems like the betting was light pre-flop to have 4 players in the pot and it's only 200. So, AK, AQ and KQ aren't terribly likely. The over bet of the all in smells like a semi-bluff to me. He might also be on the flush draw in which case, not only are you already ahead, but you've got the better draw.

The long and short of it is, it's gonna cost you 900. Your pot odds are OK, but the checker might come in, and the $200 raiser might come in, so your implied pot odds absolutely dictate a call.

And if you call and lose, well, it's early so you haven't wasted a lot of time. :)
 
#7
that was my thought....freaking "caller" who had not yet bet after flop indeed had Jack 10......flopping the straight.

I did call with pair of Aces and nut flush draw and did not catch it....

So i was sitting there wondering if i over played my hand. my 900 "call" meant i was getting nearly 2.5x my $ and when last player and the $200 raiser called, i was getting 4x my $$....had a feeling someone had the J 10, and unfortunately i was correct

think my call was good, unfortunate to lose, but even worse not to play that hand.....
 

Cloud Nine

I had to open my big mouth.......
#8
I prefer no limit cash games to anything else. Limit games have people sticking around for the cheap and catching their draws. No limit tournament have people pushing hard or taking chances to knock people out and theres nothing that ticks me off more than a suck out (except when Im the one getting the lucky card). In No limit cash games people generally dont stay in the pot when theyre drawing.
 

justme

homo economicus
#9
As far as I can see it, the entire point of games of chance is that something like a suck out can happen.

It's precisely that reason that I really am not a big fan of games of chance.
 

Waterclone

Go ahead. Try me.
#10
I've always been a fan of games that combine chance and skill. The better you are, the more you understand the skill level. Games like Poker and Backgammon. Beginners and poor players always think that the good players are always getting lucky. For some reason, that appeals to me.
 
#12
Waterclone said:
I've always been a fan of games that combine chance and skill. The better you are, the more you understand the skill level. Games like Poker and Backgammon. Beginners and poor players always think that the good players are always getting lucky. For some reason, that appeals to me.
Completely agree. I just hope the poor players stick around.. I would think that at some point the pool of poor players will dry up.
 

Cloud Nine

I had to open my big mouth.......
#13
Because of the popularity of texas hold em right now there's a smorgasborg of poor players. Because of the editing of the poker shows people think that they'll catch their straight or flush more often than they will or bluff way too much.
 

Waterclone

Go ahead. Try me.
#14
Cloud Nine said:
Because of the popularity of texas hold em right now there's a smorgasborg of poor players. Because of the editing of the poker shows people think that they'll catch their straight or flush more often than they will or bluff way too much.
I believe the appropriate word here is "Hallelujah!!!"

The pros really clean up at the WSOP. Not at the tourneys, but at the cash tables where all the fish go after being eliminated from the tourneys.
 

Wwanderer

Kids, don't try this at home
#15
Cloud Nine said:
Because of the popularity of texas hold em right now there's a smorgasborg of poor players. Because of the editing of the poker shows people think that they'll catch their straight or flush more often than they will or bluff way too much.
Waterclone said:
The pros really clean up at the WSOP. Not at the tourneys, but at the cash tables where all the fish go after being eliminated from the tourneys.
Very true, in both cases, imo.

The current situation in a lot of casino cash games is something like the poker player's version of Islamic paradise, with all those virgins hanging around waiting to get screwed. The only real problem is that there are so many TV-miseducated fish fighting for a seat that it can be a real pain in the ass to get into a game.

-Ww
 

Waterclone

Go ahead. Try me.
#17
slinkybender said:
One of the "downsides" of playing in the New York Poker rooms is that you get a much higher percentage of non-newbies.
The upside of which is, while it may cost you to learn, you are hopefully learning, and improving.
 

Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator
#18
I was dissapointed that the tournement I went to this evening was poorly attended - only 1 table! At least I was consoled by winning.... after being down to a handful of chips... and at the end the leader was like 8 to 1 chip lead over me.... but.......

I basically did ONE thing correctly tonite: the guy who was the chip leader for most of the night was directly to my left. He was bullying the table and it was obvious. So, three times I slow played stuff and he bit hook, line and sinker. One time I had pocket Jacks but just limped in (I deserved to get beat for doing that). The flop came something like 2-6-8 different suits. I checked into him, he bet big, I went all in, and he called with Q-J off suit. Off course if a A K or Q flopped I probably would have folded and lost the pot I could have collected by betting big pre-flop. But it worked. A little while later did essentially the same thing with pocket 10's, and then again with A-6 suited. (this was all with 5, 4 then 3 players left).

I'm not sure exactly how I beat the huge chip leader when we were heads up, except that while he's a good player, I don't think he played well heads up. I think he was too loose, and I played conservatively, so I didn't lose too much on the hands I lost, and killed him on the hands I won.
 

Cloud Nine

I had to open my big mouth.......
#19
slinkybender said:
I'm not sure exactly how I beat the huge chip leader when we were heads up, except that while he's a good player, I don't think he played well heads up. I think he was too loose, and I played conservatively, so I didn't lose too much on the hands I lost, and killed him on the hands I won.
Usually its the aggressive player that wins heads up. In heads up play the value of the starting hands goes way up. No accounting for luck however.
 

Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator
#20
Of course the value of of decent starting hands goes way up, but I've found that if you play with just the right amount of tightness, you can beat the guys who overplay the marginal hands because they are counting on their mediocre hands now being "great" when they are merely "good". All you need is a couple of times when they have a good starting hand and you have a prime starting hand, and they go all-in against you. For example, last night the guy immediately bet big on pocket 7's. I had pocket 2's and folded (I was thinking of going in, good thing I didn't). But any 2 over cards would be pretty much a 50/50 proposition, and with 7's there's a decent chance of 2 overcards.
 
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