perfect record
- Thread starter h. von bingen
- Start date
I don't think any of you were "getting" what I was trying to do. We have become a culture of deductive thinkers (start with a premise and then try to back it up).
Since Art is not a scientific term (despite what the academes might say), it is defined by usage, noy by what some egghead says it means.
So if each person describes what they think Art is and isn't (through examples, not through conceptualizations), then you can begin to induce what Art means across a section of people. This would be the inductive method. And it went over like a lead baloon.
So all you deductives can keep on generalizing and I'll try to stick with as low a level of generality as possible.
Just remember DATY1 does NOT equal DATY2, etc ad nauseum
Since Art is not a scientific term (despite what the academes might say), it is defined by usage, noy by what some egghead says it means.
So if each person describes what they think Art is and isn't (through examples, not through conceptualizations), then you can begin to induce what Art means across a section of people. This would be the inductive method. And it went over like a lead baloon.
So all you deductives can keep on generalizing and I'll try to stick with as low a level of generality as possible.
Just remember DATY1 does NOT equal DATY2, etc ad nauseum
Re: I'm sick of debating 'art'
I suppose I've done "perfect" some injustice with my recent comments. I think certain things can be "perfect" sometimes and ordinary at others. "Perfect From Now On" is perfect, though. "Inspiration Information" and "Live in Cook County Jail", upon further inspection, have some holes. Anything else I've mentioned in this thread is unassailable! Ha ha! The "Ha ha" was unnecessary. Forgive me.
"Great art is as irrational as great music. It is mad with its own loveliness." -- George Jean Nathan
Originally posted by justme
Let's debate 'perfect'
I'm not sure if 'couldn't find a bad song' justifies 'perfect'.
I'm not even sure if 'every song is fantastic' justifies 'perfect'.
(Built to Spill is great, but I prefered the Spinanes... otoh, I think I like Rebecca Gate's solo stuff better than either)
Let's debate 'perfect'
I'm not sure if 'couldn't find a bad song' justifies 'perfect'.
I'm not even sure if 'every song is fantastic' justifies 'perfect'.
(Built to Spill is great, but I prefered the Spinanes... otoh, I think I like Rebecca Gate's solo stuff better than either)
I suppose I've done "perfect" some injustice with my recent comments. I think certain things can be "perfect" sometimes and ordinary at others. "Perfect From Now On" is perfect, though. "Inspiration Information" and "Live in Cook County Jail", upon further inspection, have some holes. Anything else I've mentioned in this thread is unassailable! Ha ha! The "Ha ha" was unnecessary. Forgive me.
"Great art is as irrational as great music. It is mad with its own loveliness." -- George Jean Nathan
Originally posted by justme
So would you agree that Cicero is art?
But I think the presentation is art, too.
So would you agree that Cicero is art?
But I think the presentation is art, too.
JM
I do not know Cicero well enough to say whether I think his speeches are art. However, the qualities you've noted in them are the ones which I would look for in works of art which appeal to me. Those being: content which I find personally meaningful, intellectually stimulating or just pleasing expressed with skill in manipulating the form to create a desired impact.
I did not mean to say that performance is not art. I only meant to say that elegance alone would not in my mind make something art and that this was a pale description of art compared to your statements about Cicero's speeches. Perhaps again, in a thread about perfect records, I'm not so much arguing about what is art, but rather (and I shutter to say this) what is great art.
OF
Your list tells me merely what you like and what you don't like, not what your criteria is for declaring something art or non-art.
Agreeing with HVB:
Photography is art particularly in the hands of Edward Weston, Cartier Bresson, Brassai and many others
Film is definitely art:
Wild Strawberries
Scenes from a Marriage
The Godfather
Raging Bull
Chinatown
Network
Ran
Amarcord
Jules et Jim
Perfomance is art
DeNiro in Raging Bull
Joe Pesce in Raging Bull
Gielgud and Richardson in Pinter's "No Man's Land"
Peter Brook's production of " A Midsummer Night's Dream"
Stephen Sondheim's "Follies" Original production
Lee J. Cobb in "Death of a Salesman"
Christopher Plummer as Iago in "Othello"
I can go on and on listing what works of art whether it be music or painting or photos or films I appreciate as art, but to truly understand what makes me think and feel this way I must go beyond the list and describe the qualities I perceive in that work which make me rank it so highly.
And so, what is most meaningful about any discussion of art ends up reflecting back on what is most meaningful about art itself, which is that it makes us assess what we truly value, what moves us, and in so doing makes us more aware of who we are.
Originally posted by elliot16
OF
Your list tells me merely what you like and what you don't like, not what your criteria is for declaring something art or non-art.
OF
Your list tells me merely what you like and what you don't like, not what your criteria is for declaring something art or non-art.
The "list" method I was using was not an attempt to define, globally, what Art is, but to instinctively point at things that I feel are Art and are not. The method relies on instinct rather than conceptualization. Since Art is really just a 3 letter word and since all words are defined by usage, I was illustrating how I (and I alone) would tend to use the word. If you were to collect enough such lists, you could begin to define the word through the most common usage. I asked others to join in, but in order to do it, you must give up the idea of "getting it right." There is no right.
Now if I were to analyze my list, I might notice that I do not consider any manufactured thing Art. Good or bad, art is done through human media alone ( again, MY usage, not right ). So when I say, show me your Art, it can be acting, speech, sculpting, a terrible drawing, etc. Since photography involves the use of a machine to create the image, it may capture beauty, but I would not consider it Art. Products of the mind that are crafted are Art. Those that are replicated from the ideas, analyzes or models of others, are not.
If you create your list without pre-conceptualizing it, you will get a better list, because you're not trying to PROVE something.
The perfect record idea IMHO requires a similar treatment ( and we got a lot of good lists on this one ).
A couple quick comments as I've been away and not able to participate in a timely way...
First, I hope that it is clear that the same word can have different meanings and nuances and that is the case with the terms art and science. Just today I heard a specific historical military sniper described as someone who had turned sniping "into an art and a science". I am sure this was not a reference to someone, for example, who had introduced expressionist aesthetics or the use a falsifiable hypotheses and peer verification to the practice of shooting people through the head.
Second, it seems to me that the Cicero question is really one about rhetoric...i.e. is rhetoric art? Some would say it is not in the sense that many crafts are not art...i.e. their primary virtue is not artistic quality but rather some independent functional goal. Just as an expertly hand made wooden cabinet is a work of craft rather than art, so too is a well crafted oration. There are many ways to pick at this I am sure, but it is not uncommon to view rhetoric and poetry as being different...i.e. as the latter being art and the former as not.
First, I hope that it is clear that the same word can have different meanings and nuances and that is the case with the terms art and science. Just today I heard a specific historical military sniper described as someone who had turned sniping "into an art and a science". I am sure this was not a reference to someone, for example, who had introduced expressionist aesthetics or the use a falsifiable hypotheses and peer verification to the practice of shooting people through the head.
Second, it seems to me that the Cicero question is really one about rhetoric...i.e. is rhetoric art? Some would say it is not in the sense that many crafts are not art...i.e. their primary virtue is not artistic quality but rather some independent functional goal. Just as an expertly hand made wooden cabinet is a work of craft rather than art, so too is a well crafted oration. There are many ways to pick at this I am sure, but it is not uncommon to view rhetoric and poetry as being different...i.e. as the latter being art and the former as not.
Originally posted by justme
I tend to think of that as more elitism then anything else. This idea among some that art must be devoid of a practical purpose. It's the same sort of thinking that poisens the minds of so mnay otherwise intelligent mathematicians.
I tend to think of that as more elitism then anything else. This idea among some that art must be devoid of a practical purpose. It's the same sort of thinking that poisens the minds of so mnay otherwise intelligent mathematicians.