Netscape 6.01 ?

[paladin]

Once more, and then i'll shut up --

I agree with most of you that Microsoft's has engaged in some bad (even illegal) practices. But I know a lot of Microsoft people personally (including Bill). For the most part, I believe that they go to work each day trying to do their best at making great software. Most do not have an evil bone in their body and don't intend to do harm. I disagree with the folks who try to make the case that Microsoft and everyone associated with it are part of an empire whose intent is to do evil.

If Microsoft and their products are so bad, why do people continue buying them? In many cases, even better stuff is available from the competitors. I see even the most rampant complainers continue to give $$ to the very entity they consider evil in order to obtain their products. Seems somewhat hypocritical to me.

All we need to do to stop Microsoft dead in their tracks is stop buying their stuff. They would change their ways in 3-4 months - believe me.

[Edited by paladin on 07-21-2001 at 05:06 PM]

 

[Ozzy]

what monopoly?


i personaly am running 3 different operating systems on one single computer...

i also used to run netscape and IE but removed NS because it was no damn good. MS does engage in bullying, but is no where near a monopoly. people made MS the mega power it is today because they bought into a better (or easier) operating system. there are other choices in OS's and browsers... last i looked the word monopoly ment something completely different.

 

[Slinky Bender]

Ozzy,

There is a difference between "a monopoly" and "illegal monoplistic practices". There are lots of monoplies which are legal. There are lots of practices which are illegal. you can be a total monoply and engage in no illegal practices. You can be no where close to a monopoly and engage in ilegal monopoloistic practices.

paladin,

Very few people consider themselves evil, so it doesn't surprise me to hear if everyone at MS thinks of themslves as "a good person". However, it is how those people conduct themselves and are seen by others which is the real proof of the pudding.

I also think that a lot of your argument leads to the opposite conclusion which you reach. If I see a product which is inferior, and it is being pushed by the giant in whatever industry, and it gains "category killer" sales, I am inclined to believe this proves monoply, rather than disproves it.

As far as "I believe that they go to work each day trying to do their best at making great software", it's funny then that so little of "their"oftware is actually "theirs", and they seem to spend so much energy trying in one way or another to buy or force out of business other software developers every time they come up with something which truly is "great software". Of their best selling products currently, which started as inhouse projects and which have at least a substantial component which started elsewhere ?????? ( and who wrote DOS ??? and how much were they paid for it total ???).

[Edited by slinkybender on 07-21-2001 at 07:16 PM]

 

[Candide]

"If Microsoft and their products are so bad, why do people continue buying them?"

So you think the average person makes sense? Why did so many people vote for George W. all for the promise of a dinky $300.00 tax kickback? I think it is because, unfortunately, most people are stupid sheep. The fathers of this country wrote the constitution based on their shared belief that the average man (and woman though women didn't even have the vote then) were stupid beasts of burden who didn't care about the deeper issues life presents - maybe they were right. People pretty much follow the crowd, live to eat, drink and have a good time and they don't care about much else.

Slinky, you have a lot of knowledge and information on things that are important to me and you always seem to get to the point better than I can. Pardon me if I sound like a TBD client kissing up to an escort with you - I don't mean to sound that way... and of course I am sure you have your faults...but I am just so grateful to read something which sounds intelligent and independent-minded in this wasteland they call the web. Thank you!

And you would make a good spokesperson for PMS challenged women everywhere who can't talk succinctly enough to get through to men

[Edited by Candide on 07-21-2001 at 07:40 PM]

 

[justme]

'Who wrote DOS' -

I used to remember the answer to this trivia question. Wow, I must be degeeking. In fairness to Gates et al, that original programmer (while brilliant) did himself in by refusing to cooperate with the IBM suits. After having invested so much time in CMS (is that right?) for 8086 development, IBM had very little choice but to replace him with MS (who, as I'm sure you know, already had the BASIC contract). There was a great write up of this in the old What ever happened to? column in Computer Shopper about 7 years ago. Is that column still around?

Candide - I'd be amazed if Gates had half the political leverage of, say, Ken Ley.

Paladin - ditto SB's points about popular inferior product --> probable unfair trade practices.

 

[Candide]

He has enough money to start a seperate country for crying out loud. And he didn't get it by doing business legally either, never mind being decent. I think that translates into some pretty hefty freakin' political leverage. "Money talks...." And Gates is the "Godfather" of the technical industry. Maybe he looks like a harmless geek but he's really a cold reptilian thug-yuppie in khakis

 

[Ozzy]

i just think people and the us govt should be more concerned with the time warners and verizons of the world. who don't offer you any other choices.

 

[Humble Narrator]

Fascinating thread

Originally posted by Candide
...cold reptilian thug-yuppie in khakis

My God, what an image! First let me address the original thread issue(s).

I am currently using IE 5.1 and 5.5 on NT4/Win2K/Whistler (XP) along with NS4.7 and 6.01 with absolutely no issues. This is across about 9 boxes that I use during the course of a week. I repeat: I have no issues with any of the above!

If however you are running on 95/98, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Also one Linux box (RH6.2) with NS4.7 with no issues.

Now, on to the fun stuff: I have held numerous Microsoft certifications for years and I have a real love/hate relationship with them. I have to agree with Candide and SB on almost all points. Gates/MS have been absolutely shameless in their tactics from the very first deal with IBM. I know that IBM, Oracle, Sun, NS have been mentioned, but the pattern has played out across many other arenas in which they have played. Remember Novell?

How about Stacker? The one time they actually lost a law suit was over the compression software that was part of DOS 6.2, then after losing the suit they had to yank 6.2 and release 6.21, then a few weeks later they bought Stack, Inc. (rather than pay the reparations, just buy them, right?) and released 6.22 with the same compression elements of 6.2!!! But that was when they were just bush-league compared to the browser war, which really was a war for the rights to put ads in front of you and me.

And what about the RDBMS world? MS bought rights to Sybase so they could release MS SQL, then tried to foist their SQL extensions on the rest of the world.

And it goes on and on. The developers out there will all have a bag full of stories on how their tools were better than anything MS had, but the "firm has decided to standardize all tools" and Delphi/Powerbuilder/whatever goes away.

The thing that I am watching now is the whole J2EE story. With BEA and IBM being the top players in Java app servers, it's only a matter of time before MS buys BEA and then tries to muscle IBM out of their lead with Websphere. -OR- maybe they will try and buy some small-time app server vendor and then force everybody to use THAT! It would be consistent with their previous tactics.

Microsoft's best product (probably) is the NT/2000/XP platform, which was built on the VMS, again, not built by MS!!

While I have personally benefited from the association with MS over the years, I am not brainwashed.

Candide: your repeated statements re: the sadness of lost talent/work is a truly keen insight into the real cost to us all.

Ozzy: yes, MS has provided us with some relatively good stuff at a reasonable price, but once the competition is dead, the price is likely to rise (what does MS Office go for now?).

We will never know how much progress has been lost by MS crushing competitors that had legitimately good ideas. It's kind of like being under a totalitarian regime: there is order, but not much freedom. If you admire Bill Gates, you either don't really know him or you are yourself evil. You simply can't believe anything he says.

And finally, does anybody remember the "FYIFV" buttons that MS employees used to wear? I think that just about covers the mentality at work there.

[Edited by Humble Narrator on 07-21-2001 at 10:01 PM]

 

[Ozzy]

HN, candide, slink....

it's not that i want to come off as defending MS as much as i think the effort to thwart monopolies should be concentrated on other companies that make a bigger killing and flat out rip off the consumer way more than MS does.......at least at this moment in time.

you also have to admit that since this whole govt vs MS thing has happened, that technology in that field has slowed considerably. MS might steal everyones ideas...but they do get those ideas to the consumer a lot faster, and thats all this selfish SOB cares about right now.

 

[ew]

The last part of your post is a bit of a stretch.

 

[Hotpuppy]

Re: Fascinating thread

Originally posted by Humble Narrator


First let me address the original thread issue(s).

I am currently using IE 5.1 and 5.5 on NT4/Win2K/Whistler (XP) along with NS4.7 and 6.01 with absolutely no issues. This is across about 9 boxes that I use during the course of a week. I repeat: I have no issues with any of the above!
If however you are running on 95/98, you have no one to blame but yourself.
Also one Linux box (RH6.2) with NS4.7 with no issues.


And this helps me how?
HP

 

[Candide]

Poor Hotpuppy! Poor Baby....we should send a programming contingent up there to fix your computer setup and scope out escorts in Vermont and maybe bring up some H&H bagels too

Ozzy - Thank you for mentioning Verizon and Time Warner! I was just having a talk about them the other day - I told my Dad to switch his phone service because Verizon was soaking him the way they did me. At least he has a choice for cable he doesnt HAVE to use Time Warner...in Brooklyn there is no choice and they suck. They have their contracts for territory and I blame the government officials who get paid off for that.

Humble Narrator - You seem to see the BIG picture and it is very enlightening :

"But that was when they were just bush-league compared to the browser war, which really was a war for the rights to put ads in front of you and me."

I didn't think of that - but the advertising revenue possibilities ($$$$$$$!!!) is something that Netscape may or may not have envisioned but Gates sure did - it isn't about inventing new technology for him. It's all about inventing ways to soak the consumer and have the dough land in his pocket ONLY - the man is such a greedy control freak that it is frightening! I have no problem with him being rich and successful - but he could let other people benefit from their own work and ideas for a change!

"And what about the RDBMS world? MS bought rights to Sybase so they could release MS SQL, then tried to foist their SQL extensions on the rest of the world."

I have been coming home from work everyday late and with a giant headache because of this issue. People think that MS is making new releases of platforms and applications compatible but they are not. They shove their copyright of every new format in the consumers face after other companies release it and after they have copied what isn't theirs and then the millions of unknown little grunts around the country have to struggle to get MS programming to stop fighting and attacking the new applications. My department deals with hundreds of different tech products and adapts them and integrates them, producing hardware and software for financial planners and agents within the company to use for client relationship management and efficiency management. Entire departments of people spend their days struggling to get MS's applications to allow the other applications to work properly. His applications are not useful in and of themselves. It is just that his damned operating system always comes with competitive programs built-in to hamstring the applications we need to use. I believe that it is not Netscape 6 which is messed up on Hotpuppy's computer. His operating system won't allow it to work properly and it is the windows operating system which screws up every competitive product you try to load on a machine.

I remember back in 1991 and 1992 using IBM's O/S 2 and thinking what a great product that was. A year later is was gone - wiped out by MS who insisted that IBM use MS's Windows and insisted they load their machines prepackaged with MS word and their suite of rather crappy software. Then Wordperfect disappeared and the inferior MS Word ruled offices every where and secretaries all over New York were complaining and begging for Wordperfect back but it was too late - MS got rid of them like the wicked old witch that company is.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us Humble Narrator - I've learned a lot and I do appreciate it.

[Edited by Candide on 07-22-2001 at 10:21 AM]

 

[Ozzy]

in Brooklyn there is no choice and they suck. They have their contracts for territory and I blame the government officials who get paid off for that.

candide....

blame david dinkins....he was on the board that decided how new york city (the largest in the world) got split up and handed out those cable contracts.... remember, he owned large amounts of stock in BQ/Quicks Cable...(later taken over by time warner) oh yeah..i forgot, he claimed he gave that stock to his son didn't he....so i guess that wasn't so much a conflict of interest. that f*cking sweaty bastard should be in jail.

and people still bitch about that lousy headboard.

[Edited by Ozzy on 07-22-2001 at 09:43 AM]

 

[Candide]

Yeah Oz and I especially hate the way he used tax payers dollars to beat traffic to the tennis open by taking a helicopter. He was not my fav mayor. I was gravely disappointed in him. You mean he bought a new headboard for the bed in Gracey Mansion? I vaguely remember something like that what a petit-bourgeois

 

[Ozzy]

btw,
he still has those court side seats he was supposed to give back since he wasn't supposed to accept them while in office. i think people forget WHY they voted for rudy.

 

[Candide]

I think you're right. But people shouldn't forget...voters are too indifferent. Dinkins should have been ashamed to accept those tickets and Rudy shouldn't be holier- than-thou about sex joints.....I saw an old movie yesterday called "Dancing Lady", made in 1933 starring Clark Gable and Joan Crawford (who was a pretty good dancer) and Fred Astaire making his first appearance in a film. The film opens with the cops raiding a strip tease joint in Times Square. Some fancy Park Avenue boy is there slumming, falls in love with Joan Crawford and bails her out of jail. He follows her around and "subsidizes" her career in legitimate dancing. Her indecent crime was appearing on stage in a two piece lamay get-up which looked rather tame by today's standards. Boy has times and also Times Square changed a million times since then. What an eye opener that movie was Sexual Harassment was not a household word then.

 

[SkellyChamp]

Candidie

FWIW - That fancy Park Avenue Boy was Franchot Tone (Mutiny on the Bounty) who less than 2 years later married Joan Crawford. And did you catch the Three Stooges in the movie.
Joan was, in my opinion, more than a pretty fair dancer. She started out as a dancer which got her her big break and she quickly moved to the screen starting out in the silent era. She's buried up in Hartsdale, NY.

 

[Candide]

Skelly - Yes! Franchot Tone, I was told, always played those roles of the playboy who loses the girl in the end to the leading man (Clark Gable) And I thought Joan was pretty sexy in that movie with some decent muscle tone I also thought Clark Gable, with his perfect V torso in a suit was hot But the movie was amazingly melodramatic and I kept laughing at the "Sarah Bernhardt" facial expressions. I did not know that Joan was buried in New York State - thanks for filling me in. I also didn't know Joan was so capable of playing a tough but idealistic broad type. She was pretty good. What I loved about that movie was seeing New York during that era which I never knew...and feeling like I was there, the strip joints, the wise cracking dames and all the men wearing fedora hats (Franchot Tone wore a top hat and a tux to a strip joint and his gir friend wore a mink stole. Some guys near the stage were trying to touch the girls and there were no security or bouncers! And when they were raided the cops forced the girls to go without putting their street clothes on - and Franchot and his party hopped in the paddy wagon to go along to Night Court just for a laugh) They had night court back then! That was the end of prohibition. Everyone must have been wild. The atmosphere, the lack of modern devices, clothes and styles, the fast talk and the way the chorus girls in the movie looked slim and pretty like they still do today (Joan was slender with shapely arms and legs and a muscular back) It all just made me think and made me realize the history of this town is something I love and how I wish I could have experienced the city back then

The three Stooges were a bonus - I didnt expect them - what a laugh riot!



[Edited by Candide on 07-22-2001 at 04:21 PM]

 

[SkellyChamp]

Candide - Many of the fiilms from that era are based in New York and show the whole top hat and tails night life. It was a very popular script style in the depression when people were going to the movie to escape their lives (much like today eh). I love classic movies and have an extensive collection. I find the scripts and dialogue heads and shoulders above what we see on the screen now.

BTW- A year later Gable hit it big with It Happened One Night with Claudette Colbert. One of the first screwball comedies. If you have a chance you should catch it. Also, My Man Godfrey with William Powell and Carole Lombard (who later became Mrs. Clark Gable before she died tragically in a plane crash in 1942).

I could go on forever.

 

[beep9]

1.) NT (From it's origin on) was not developed on a VAX, nor at DEC. It is true that the lead architect (Cutler) and a number of the tech leads had been hired from DEC.







2.) Re: Browsers. Granted, it will cost you 35 bucks or so, but has anyone tried opera? It's wicked fast, and it runs on all the OS's that I run(even the sparc linux box that serves here)



3.) Candide, if you really don't like Microsoft, download or buy a linux or FreeBSD setup, and go. For a Brooklyn girl, I'll even walk over hand help you out (Now, speak slowly and clearly into the microphone).



4.) As has paladin (I'll bet) I've gone up against Microsoft, and had my shirt handed to me. They're good, they're fast, and they know where they're going. Much like GM in the 20's - 60's, IBM in the 50's, etc. Microsoft hater's really need to remember what I'm told is a NYC Plaground Adage: "Take me once, shame on you; Take me twice, shame on me"



5.) Someone way up above was confusing mDOS (the precursor of MS-DOS) with CP/M. They're not the same. Gary Kildall wanted to play more than he wanted IBM's business. Microsoft wanted the business, and took it.