Mini Real Estate Boom In Sullivan County - NY

seeker6591 · Apr 30, 2006

With the introduction of slot machine gaming and pending development of the first of 5 proposed indian gaming facilities in the Monticello, NY area, real estate prices in the general area have been booming since the summer of 2002. Average prices for both commercial and residential properties have risen 2-3 fold during this period. Speculation is pretty evident. Properties that were selling at distressed prices ( 10-20 percent of comparable NYC properties) are now selling at about 80 % parety to NYC prices. This is expected to continue for quite some time as a large number of big commmercial construction projects commence.

Here is a partial list of large non-residential projects currently underway:

Project Costs Status

Bethel Woods PAC $85 mil Completed, Opens July 1.

Simon Shopping Mall $400 mil Construction underway.

New Int'l Airport $200 mil Planning and sitework.

3 new hotels/motels $50 mil Construction underway.

Mohawk Nation Casino $800 mil Final appoval pending.

Kimmie · Apr 30, 2006

The only reason Real Esate is rising in Sullivan County is because Orange County has been choked by all the transplants from the city.

No one can afford a home in Orange County anymore, so everyone is moving further north.

Orange County is the most popular place to live because of it's only a 1hour drive to the city (on a good day) When word got out that OC was a cheap place to live, and far enough north to be considered country living, we suffered.

When I first moved to Orange County in 1991 a Two Bedroom apartment was, on average 650-750 a month. That's in a Garden complex.
Now I pay 1,100 for a two bedroom in a three family house!

10 years ago A two bedroom townhouse was 90,000. Now it's 200,000.

A one family home was 115,000 now its 300,000-350,000

When we bought our house in 1998 we paid 136,000. Now the homes in our cul de sac go for 200,000- 300,000. Ours was appraised at 210,000!

25 new one family homes were built over the last 10 years which they labeled "low income housing" They sold for anywhere between 180,000- 225,000.

Orange County home owners are being forced to move to Sullivan because of the increase in homes, traffic, and lack of "country living" that was here back in 1991.

You will see....Sullivan County will suffer the same as Orange County has and real estate prices will rise and more people will leave.

Ulster County will feel the next boom in real estate and retail and no one even knows where Ulster County is located!

seeker6591 · Apr 30, 2006

sorry Kimmie, while Sullivan Cty has picked up some drift from Orange County
"refugees", it really has very little to do with what is going on around Monticello. all it has really done is tighten up the housing market. that aside, commercial develpment has not started for the first time in 20 years, to accomdate the orange county drifters, it has begun to create a new economic
nucleus in Monticello.

so the premise and conclusion of your post is incorrect.

each casino is projected to bring in up to 100,000 visitors DAILY....you guys in Orange are really just jealous....right?? lol.

as i said earlier, in COMMERCIAL real estate large sums of money have already been made and this should continue for quite some time.

Kimmie · Apr 30, 2006

seeker6591 said:

Yeah that's it. I'm jealous of a county that has a town name Wurtsboro!

With commercial real estate comes housing. If you build they will come. But the thing about your area is that years and years ago it was a great spot for the summer drifters, then it died. So they decided to go on a campaign to get the casinos. They begged and pleaded to get come commerical traffic to the area.

Soon you will be pushed out of Sullivan. And bitchin just like us Orange countiers.

But this is all a trickle effect. NYC got too crowded and expensive, so people migrated to Westchester and Jersey.

When Westchester got too expensive ,people moved to Rockland, when Rockland became a rich county, regular folk moved to Orange and so on and so on...

You may only be talking about the commercial aspects of the growth in Sullivan, but there's a price to pay for wanting people to come to your county and spend money....

seeker6591 · Apr 30, 2006

Kimmie said:

Thank god I don't live in Sullivan.( at least right now) Lol.

downstate is my stomping ground.

I really can't say much else Kimmie ...I'm sure you understand !

But Orange Cty (Middletown,Goshen..all the way to Harriman) will benefit economically from this all despite the naysayers in your county...but really its called progress. Orange County is actually the fastest growing area in NYS....local GNP up 20 percent. Real estate in this area also will also continue to do very well.

From a quality of life standpoint...I know exactly what you are saying and yes you are right...it will continue to get worse. Middletown today is almost a big city...20 years ago it was a dot on the map. Still a nice place to visit and Im sure a nice place to live despite all those damn NY'ers that moved up after 9/11.

Ulster County is spectacular . let's hope it stays that way.

As I said earlier, all of my comments were from a commercial real estate perspective.

seeker6591 · Apr 30, 2006

seeker6591 said:

just as a point of reference, Sullivan is now one of the poorest counties in NY, and an eyesore to NYS. Various government officials, including The Honourable Governor Of The State Of New York, George Pataki have commited to the rebuilding of Sullivan in an attempt to restore it to its previous importance. IMHO, it is really time to get something going and provide some viable jobs in the process. just my 2 cents.

Kimmie · Apr 30, 2006

seeker6591 said:

Middletown is nothing like it was 14 years ago. It blows.

Yes, I love the retail and all the big name stores that have come here. ( except I really want a Macys) But the thing that brought us here, the one lane roads on Rt 211, the small town mom and pop stores ( Remember Lloyds?) I miss the stress free driving, and evening drives. We use to do them every evening after dinner to not just know the area, but to enjoy the area. So refreshing from Yonkers.

I am not mad that OC has grown. We all have to grow in order to prosper but its the f'ing cost of Real Estate prices that really gets me pissed.

I want out of this apartment ( long story why I am no longer in the house we bought back in 1998) I want a cute little townhouse so I can get back to the burbs of Middletown. But who the hell can afford to buy one when they are charging Westchester prices for a county that pays it's local employees minimum wage?

Sullivan is very poor, especially Ellenville. It's so depressing. but how many of the locals will be part of the development of Sullivan?

When OC was building up there was a huge up roar about the use of outsiders instead of locals.

Most of the stores, homes and large companies were built by outsiders. Some say it's our own fault for not being more competitive when making deals to build, but how can you when there's no freakin money here!!!!

Will that be the case for Sullivan?

Casinos, retail, new homes, thats all great, but not if local folks do not prosper before and during the process..

seeker6591 · May 1, 2006

Kimmie said:

1. i noticed your pissed.

2. their is a new large highrise townhouse development that started 2 weeks ago in Monticello ...probably within your price range !!

3. much of the labor is being imported (excluding plumbers and electricians).

4. the big us construction companies are in fact the general contractors (Flour and Suffolk)

5. each casino is projected to hire at least 10,000 employees..it a start
and yes the locals will benefit primarily in the construction trades,jobs at the casinos and by way of retail and other service businesses.

at least its a start...their is LITLE VIABLE WORK IN THE COUNTY RIGHT NOW.

Kimmie · May 1, 2006

seeker6591 said:

Thanks but Monticello is too far. ( which I feel a lotof NYC workers will think as well,and will not move there.)

And no ones peeved yet? No picketing, no jobs stopped because of the pressure from the local residence or politicians?

Yes, but what will they earn?

There was an article in the Sunday Times Record a few Sundays ago about how local retail workers can't even afford to shop in the stores they work.

They make about 360 a week( before taxes), while housing is 950 a month, not leaving much left over for things like ah.. electric bills, phone, FOOD!

Commercial builders from other areas sold OC a pretty picture, but failed to finish the canvas, and bailed before we could realize it.

seeker6591 · May 2, 2006

Kimmie said:

most casino workers earn substantially more than minimum wage ( multiples) and receive benefits as well. employment is also much more stable because casinos rarely slow down or layoff workers.

jyris · May 2, 2006

Real estate near Bethel and Monticello has actually been booming for about four years now, although the rate of increase has picked up as casino progress has picked up. In eastern Sullivan, Mamakating (just over the border from Orange) is full of expensive homes, and has picked up a little bit of a commercial tax base as well.

It's not all rosy, though. Various hassidic communities have been buying up property, and tensions between these groups and the "locals" are rising. Over Passover, the kitchen at Villa Roma was severely damaged by fire after the resort owners rebuffed an unsolicited purchase offer by a hassidic group.

I lived in Sullivan for a year, which was about 11 months too long. Once you're tagged as a second-home owner, the prices that locals want to charge you for construction and maintenance work are -- almost without exception -- absurd. I'd put up union carpenters from the City for a weekend to do work for me for a fraction of what local companies wanted to charge me. I hate to stereoptype, but many Sullivan residents seem to want to work for the summer, hunt in the fall, snowmobile in the winter, and fish in the spring (like they used to when the old resorts were booming) -- and they expect out-of-towners to pay for this lifestyle. Maybe the casino will help, but I think that a radical shift in attitude on the part of most residents is what's really needed.

In short, I'd be very careful before buying any property up there. Big Sullivan dreams have an unfortunate record of imploding.

seeker6591 · May 2, 2006

jyris said:

It sounds like more than a kitchen fire......the main building is destroyed.

Kimmie · May 3, 2006

jyris said:

Thats a part of what I was trying to bring light on. Bringing out of town builders in to do the work.

When this was done for the Galleria Mall, and for the New Walmart and Home Depot malls, Orange County workers went ape shit because they couldnt compete with what the out of towners had offered.

In short..... OC was f'ing greedy. And it only hurt the local workers.

I would rather bitch and moan, and have a job, than bitch and moan and have no job. But hey, that's just me.

I understand that business is business, and you have to make offers that you hope are the lowest and most attractive, but from what I can recall, OC local unions were asking for an arm, a leg, and a head as well.

In my opinion, and I am no real estate expert, if you want to build up in your community, and provide jobs for the local residence, whether they be the ones that build, or the ones that work inside once built, you have to make some concessions, and still stay competitive.

All OC did was picket.

jyris · May 3, 2006

I work in the construction industry (management, not trade work).

Part of the problem for Sullivan -- less so for Orange, but also true -- is that there are no large, well-qualified GCs or construction management firms in the local area. Actually, this is no surprise, since there really hasn't been a market for their services upstate; you don't need a full-service CM to put up a small commercial building or housing developments.

When I first moved to OC, I tried working for a local firm -- lasted about a year (I was trying to lose the NYC commute, but the $ tradeoff turned out not to be worth it). My impression is that there are some very good subcontractors in the area, and some very good tradesmen. However -- although the quality of their work is good -- their productivity is pitiful compared to what I would expect from NYC-area subs. So, if I'm managing a large project in the area and incurring costs based on how long it takes to build, why would I hire a local sub whose price may be equal to or even less than a downstate firm, but who will take longer to finish?

BTW, the local craft unions are a joke -- even their own members say so. Call the carpenter's BA and tell him you need men (or women, whatever), and it'll take him three days to round up enough unqualified buddies; they're all out building decks and putting up siding for non-union outfits, and the BAs know this. Shit, I can get fifty well-qualified carpenters from Yonkers to OC within two hours of a phone call.

thecat · May 5, 2006

i rember when orange was the country. thirty years ago you could pull over
on 17 by the wallkill river take your hunting rifle out of the trunk and climb over the guard rail. try that now. btw greene county is the next boom.

seeker6591 · May 20, 2006

thecat said:

actually..perhaps Ulster County ???

seeker6591 · Jun 14, 2006

Bethel Woods Center For The Arts

The new performing arts center in Bethel, NY opens July 1. The New York Philharmonic Orchestra will be performing. Great news for Sullivan County !!!

Here is a link:

http://www.bethelwoods.us/

Mini Real Estate Boom In Sullivan County - NY

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