Common Mistakes: Provider wars and clients "White Knights".

[Thorn]

A thread on an old bug-a-boo. As old as PMBs themselves.

Let us discuss, in calm and soothing tones please, why is it that even though it has been proven time and time again that "whore wars" are no good for anyone [particularly providers] they still occur.

Let us also discuss the often funny, and occasionally surreal, effect of "white knights" in these affairs.

One rule: This is apt to be a controversial topic. WE WILL KEEP THIS GENERAL.

No specific wars are to be mentioned. No specific white knights either.

The purpose of this thread is to better understand the make up of such things, not to start new ones. It is brought up because these two bits of business certainly effect PMBs, and have effected lives [as both client and provider outings have come from such wars].

As such it is precisely the fodder for this forum. Smart providers and clients can, and should, discuss ways to avoid these bits of business. Certainly understanding why they happen may well aid in that endevor.

 

[Thorn]

Premise #1

There are enough clients go go around.

If this is true, and no one seems to deny it, than what is the purpose of engaging in hostilities between providers working in the same area, price range and services?

Perhaps it isn't actually true at all?

Either way it seems that it rarely works out well for any of the providers involved, yet there have been so many of them in the past and they still happen today. Why? What's the point?

 

[Thorn]

Premise #2 White Knights gain from coming to the aid of their Damsel providers?

Do they?

Perhaps in the short term with their one provider, but it certainly seems to cost them long term with other providers and fellow clients who readily see the behavior for what it is and no longer believe the posts of the client in question to be credible.

Yet some seem absolutely driven, they charge so hard to the rescue when their damsel/provider appears threatened.

What motivates them? Why do they do as they do?

 

[wolf5958]

Do they?

Perhaps in the short term with their one provider, but it certainly seems to cost them long term with other providers and fellow clients who readily see the behavior for what it is and no longer believe the posts of the client in question to be credible.

Yet some seem absolutely driven, they charge so hard to the rescue when their damsel/provider appears threatened.

What motivates them? Why do they do as they do?

You named the reason it is that protect the weaker sex thing. It is also hard to sometimes and just stand by when you know the acusations are false and the provider maybe a personal friend. The problem also is that some of the white knights have a hard time seperating the fantesy of the provider from the reality of life. This is just my opinion on this matter,

 

[Thorn]

You named the reason it is that protect the weaker sex thing. It is also hard to sometimes and just stand by when you know the acusations are false and the provider maybe a personal friend. The problem also is that some of the white knights have a hard time seperating the fantesy of the provider from the reality of life. This is just my opinion on this matter,

OK...

Things to think about and discuss suggested by your response in my opinion would be:

1) If it is to protect the weaker sex, why become a john in the first place? Seems to be the two are possible incompatible in that many [I didn't say I think so, because I don't] believe that seeing providers is taking advantage of the "weaker" sex.

2) When evidence indicates that the third party jumping into a fight never makes a fight better, how is it helping a "friend", wrongly accused or not, by being that third person? All that ever happens is that the heat goes up and the fight gets worse now that one side has "re-enforcements" showing up.

3) Suspension of reality. This I certainly believe to be part of the problem, because when common sense is saying, "everything about what these people are doing is just bad for business", and business is supposed to be the reality... well, suspension of that reality must taking place.

 

[Thorn]

What is a White Knights most imposing motivation?

Do they do it mostly to be the hero?

Do they do it out of a sense of fair play being violated?

Do they do it mostly to get special treatment?

What do you think is their primary reason?

 

[wolf5958]

OK...

Things to think about and discuss suggested by your response in my opinion would be:

1) If it is to protect the weaker sex, why become a john in the first place? Seems to be the two are possible incompatible in that many [I didn't say I think so, because I don't] believe that seeing providers is taking advantage of the "weaker" sex.

2) When evidence indicates that the third party jumping into a fight never makes a fight better, how is it helping a "friend", wrongly accused or not, by being that third person. All that ever happens is that the heat goes up and the fight gets worse now that one side has "re-enforcements" showing up.

3) Suspension of reality. This I certainly believe to be part of the problem, because when common sense is saying, "everything about what these people are doing is just bad for business", and business is supposed to be the reality... well, suspension of that reality must taking place.

Valid points all of them but I think the third point is what lneds itself to the other two. There are guys out there who in their minds the envolpe doesn't exsist they place on a table or what not never dicusse it and kind of ignore that it even exsists in the first place. In this case they elude themselves into believeing their ATF is more than a provider. Thus when a war breaks out they rush to the aid of the damsel in distress cause in their mind she really is and not an escort. These are the same guys that after a while a wise escort will break up with cause he could become dangours later on as his attachment is unnatural and is only in his head.

The real friend sometime loses his prepestive. He knows one of the parties involed by her real name and knows her real life and has shared real time with her. He no longer sees her in the persona that is the working girl but the woman underneath. It is this person in his mind he is defending. In reality a real friend would hold back knowing his involement will only esculate the problem. Again it comes with the supension of reality the woman is more than capible of defending herself but as a friend he feels the need to intervien, I call that the D in D syndrom.

I think most white knights think they are doing the right thing and most I don't believe expect a favor in return. They do not look at it as it hurting their chances with another provider or the fact that in the future their posts may be looked at as shill for the girl. I think they get emotional and forget to seperate the business from the woman. They do not reconize that at the end of the day she showers and takes her makeup off and is than someones wife or So or a mother or what have you just like you or me. At the end of the day I hang up my security persona and let my daddy one out.

 

[Waterclone]

Let us discuss, in calm and soothing tones please, why is it that even though it has been proven time and time again that "whore wars" are no good for anyone [particularly providers] they still occur.

Why do they occur? That's easy. While there are several smart and stable women in the industry, in general, a lot of the women that end up in this business do not fall into that category. Many come to this business either as a result of emotional damage or a lack of ability to earn a living in another manner. As a result, you get a lot of people who are emotionally immature and the resulting "whore wars" as you put it is not dissimilar from girls fighting in grade school or high school.

Are there enough clients to go around? Of course there are.
Is such a "war" good for them or their business? Of course not?

But again, the girls involved in these wars, usually, aren't the most business savvy.

And, to reiterate, I know there are plenty of stable, smart women in this business, and even some of them end up sucked into these kinds of fights. My comments are only based on my observations of the many.

Let us also discuss the often funny, and occasionally surreal, effect of "white knights" in these affairs.

Also easy. Some of us have genuine affection for certain ladies and want to stand up for them.

Others of us think that if we become "friends" and defend someone, she'll be more likely to offer us better services than she offers others.

 

[fairemily]

I think in any job you will get a fair amount of unstable people ruining it for the rest. I can't tell you how many times a client has told me he is having trouble at his office due to an unstable coworker or boss. There are stable and unstable people in every field of employment where sabotage, unprovoked gossip, jealousy and unhealthy competition occurs. The only difference in ours is public and our clients (and yes, I do consider most my friends) can intervene if they choose.

 

[Thorn]

Why do they occur? That's easy. While there are several smart and stable women in the industry, in general, a lot of the women that end up in this business do not fall into that category. Many come to this business either as a result of emotional damage or a lack of ability to earn a living in another manner. As a result, you get a lot of people who are emotionally immature and the resulting "whore wars" as you put it is not dissimilar from girls fighting in grade school or high school.

I don't find this to be the case at all.

The whore wars I have been witness to are like crime families or gangs fighting over turf, and frequently just as vicious.

Its the GUYS coming into these wars as patrons of their damsels that strike me more like school girls fighting.

But again, the girls involved in these wars, usually, aren't the most business savvy.

Also easy. Some of us have genuine affection for certain ladies and want to stand up for them.

Yes, but the "Third Man In" rule applies. That which states that the person entering a fight never makes the fight less severe. It only increases tension and makes it worse. So these people coming to the defense of their damsels only increase the problem. They never help it.

AND their motivations are frequently suspect, as many of them aren't looking to help anyone put themselves. They want, some even expect, the 'damsel' to provide SFT for their coming to their "aid".

Others of us think that if we become "friends" and defend someone, she'll be more likely to offer us better services than she offers others.

Like I said. Don't you think that is a pretty tacky reason to "help" some one?

 

[stevefor2005]

Also...

-snip-

AND their motivations are frequently suspect, as many of them aren't looking to help anyone put themselves. They want, some even expect, the 'damsel' to provide SFT for their coming to their "aid".

I think maybe part of the 'white knight's' motivation is fear that, if not adequately defended, he may lose an ATF. She might disappear UTR, move on to a gentler city, etc.

 

[fairemily]

New theory

Maybe the motivation has nothing to do with any of the above, maybe it's psychologically motivated, here's my new theory. How many places can you anonymously stick up for someone you like? If your see your co-worker being chewed out without merit can you step in? In reality no, not without risking yoru job. Here on a message boards is one of the only place you can safely voice your opinion when someone you know is being unjustly accused, belittled or harassed. Personally, I don't ask for handles so some of the guys who stick up for me I have no idea who they are so no special favors are expected, the others I may have met at an event but will not ever see them in session because I might not be the service they want. The few that I have seen it is usually a one shot deal or once in a blue moon because they are hobbyist and hobbyist never marry anyone. The motives for the white knight posts might just be because our nice members basically can and it makes them feel good without worrying about retribution. Many acts are played out in one place because they could not in another. I think the same applies to flaming, it's safe to do, you don't have to do it face to face and get your kicks off in the privacy of your home, office. It's like cursing out a telemarketer, venting without consequences. Let me tell you many of us providers and members alike were outcasts growing up and we can't stand when we see someone being picked on whether they can stand on thier own now or not.

 

[More4me]

Do they do it mostly to be the hero?

Do they do it out of a sense of fair play being violated?

Do they do it mostly to get special treatment?

What do you think is their primary reason?

Personally I'd say "B" - out of a sense of fair play being violated. I don't think special treatment can realistically be the desired outcome. But maybe Em's right -- the anonymous ability to attempt to (falsely) play hero... even though Thorn's 3rd Man In Rule kicks in.

 

[JXM]

I think that in many cases guys that see providers frequently start getting SFT for a variety of reasons, and they believe that they are the "only" guy that gets such treatment (no clock, off the clock dates, bb services, or whatever) and they are conflicted because they want to ensure that the "bad" clients don't get the same thing.

In the guy's mind, even though he has probably had BB sex with 5 other escorts the same year, he feels that he is the GOOD GUY and the other guy that he knows from the board has had BB sex with 5 escorts is a BAD GUY, and worries that his SFT will get passed on to someone else and fuck up his game.

In the guy's mind, girls will give him SFT because he is a good guy, while his "opponents" will get SFT because they are predators.

(and I don't mean to infer that all of these things start because of BB services being provided, but when you get down to the bottom of any good war, you can bet that it is part of the equation)

 

[10538]

SFT? What's that?

 

[wolf5958]

SFT? What's that?

Speical
Fucking
Treatment

 

[IRVINGTON29]

Providers are women man

At the end of the day one bad guy to a provider maybe a favorite to another provider.

I seen that happen, a provider will blast a client and then the other providers jump on her ass. It is not because they don't believe her all the time, they just want to keep that money coming in and to impress the violated client.

Similar to what hobbyists do to each other. Providers do it at a cut throat level. For example when the Candy Shop had their run on craigslist ( The Brooklyn girls). They did well, until infighting happened. They kicked this one girl out the group I forgot her name she was young. I drove over there to see her because anytime some drama happen it is the perfect time to swoop in. I fucked her and got a nice bbj and I said what happened?

She said them bitches was jealous of me. I said they should be girl you look good. Eventually she "fell off". The reason she fell off she did not have the resources to go independent, no computer, no how idea to run her own business. UG girls are independent and are smarter than most providers. A good 80 percent of girls in the game got no brain at all.

The moral of the story other people may think there a bad provider or hobbyist is bad and other people may think that person is great.

 

[Retoxicate]

The moral of the story other people may think IRV is bad and other people may think that person is horrible.

FIXED. Couldn't resist

 

[IRVINGTON29]

LOL

Pure comedy, I am trying to come out of the darkness actually.

I might start sending flowers to girls I got bbjs from. I am not trying to be funny I am really trying to be a good guy.

I want to be like some of the other hobbyists and view providers as "people" just with nut on their face or in their mouth.

I did have a "hobbyist moment", I ran into a non pro at a hospital by pure accident. A girl I fucked before and left nut in her mouth. I actually felt kind of embarrassed, I was like damn what do I say hi. Anyway I said "whats up girl", she said whats up with like a sly smile. Then I saw her ass again walking with this guy, she ignored me.

I normally wouldn't have cared but she got a 'mean" head game. When she does bbj she swallows the nut and keeps going unbelievable! Mind you we stopped talking because I was upset she was retiring and I said "girls don't retire from the game". It is like crossing the bridge of no return. She got upset and said " I am retiring and that's that".

Now she back in the game saying "she seeing old clients". Man sometimes I wish I was wrong but most of the time I am right. I knew she would be back hoing.

Damn I got off track again, the moral of the story it is always awkward running into a provider you met before. You start having flashbacks like damn you was a "nasty bitch". You really was girl like DAMN! She started laughing at me but I was talking to her in the corner like man the things you do with your tongue simply amazing.

They say I am not a nice guy come on. By the way I ain't buy her no followers or nothing but just another appointment for more "throat lotion" "man yogurt". She asked me what was "man yogurt", I said you know what it is you was tasting it.

Again I am a charming guy.

 

[Thorn]

I think maybe part of the 'white knight's' motivation is fear that, if not adequately defended, he may lose an ATF. She might disappear UTR, move on to a gentler city, etc.

More just go under the radar than move to another city.

If the ATF is a regular of hers. Already vetted and producing a regular income stream, the provider is going to take pains to make sure that client knows how to get in touch with her so she can take him under the radar with her.