Real Estate bubble?

This is just the first mortgage company I checked. Last week I spoke to a friend of mine that is a loan officer for a competitor and they offer the same.

http://69.20.13.21/newnymc/programm/no-documentation.shtml

http://69.20.13.21/newnymc/programm/first-time.shtml

And not to start an argument, but not putting 20% down isn't the cause of the problem. In the past, if you didn't put 20% down, you were forced to pay PMI. The problem this time around is that borrowers are taking out interest only or 1-5 year ARM mortgages and gambling that their property would appreciate enough within five years that they could refinance into a more conventional mortgage. Since many properties are valued less than what they appraised for when they took out the loan, the borrower can't pull off a refinance.

Ace- Went to the above links, that could be a bait and switch ad. I do not think there is much of the No money down no doc loans going on.

You are not starting an argument, everything you write is 100% correct. The Government let the banks go wild. All the rules went out the window. As always, these new policy's made many wealthy, and the average Joe is going to pay the price.
 
Not sure if I agree with this. To some extent, this would put the blame for NY's decline somewhat on the back of all the Landmarked Districts and individually Landmarked buildings. I also don't know if I think what's happened to 42nd street is making NY a "greater" city, but then there's all sorts of problems I have with the way Times Square redevelopment was handled altogether (see http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?p=498776&highlight=square#post498776 )
Did the redevelopment of Times Square make us a greater city? As a red light district, it was a great tourist attraction and employed thousands. It was also the home of many non adult, Mom and Pop stores. There was affordable office space, accessible by transportation. It was a very interesting place. Now it is an out door mall, promoted by large neon lights.

Forget about the average businessman being able to afford the rent. There is also no place to park. It was really about shifting the money.
 
Although I never saw a direct quote, it's often been said that Greenspan encouraged people to take those loans with the rediculously low teaser rates.... so why wouldn't they? Besides, in the end... as usual... the US Taxpayer shoudlers the utlimate risk since so many mortgages are in the end backed by the US Gov't.

What many us do not realize is that when someone takes out a mortage, these mortages are then packaged and sold as AAA bonds to investors.

When mortgages are not paid back, there is no money to pay the interest on the issued bonds, which is why the Government has infused close to a trilliion dollars of our money into the stock market.
 
Ace- Went to the above links, that could be a bait and switch ad. I do not think there is much of the No money down no doc loans going on.

You are not starting an argument, everything you write is 100% correct. The Government let the banks go wild. All the rules went out the window. As always, these new policy's made many wealthy, and the average Joe is going to pay the price.
Anybody remember who Alan Greenspan was a disciple of?

(although I have to admit he seemed to be rather chummy with President Clinton during his administration)
 
Although I never saw a direct quote, it's often been said that Greenspan encouraged people to take those loans with the rediculously low teaser rates.... so why wouldn't they? Besides, in the end... as usual... the US Taxpayer shoudlers the utlimate risk since so many mortgages are in the end backed by the US Gov't.

I also disagree that not putting 20% isn't the problem: historically you are correct that you could get 90% financing and pay PMI, BUT you couldn't get a no doc 90% loan, and you couldn't get more than 90%, unlike the OVER 100% FINANCING in a lot of sub prime loans.

Also, there is something very important that very few people realize about foreclosures/defaults* (which is the real problem. As long as the borrower is actually paying, none of this matters really). There is a psychological factor in "how much I have sunk into this place": Even if the property is "under water" (i.e. the amount of the loan is greater than the value), a lot of people will continue to pay, even if it means a big financial hardship, to hang onto their percieved "equity" (scare quotes because in reality, if the property is under water, there is no equity). If they haven't sunk much or any money into the place, they are MUCH more likely to walk away from it when things head even slightly south. This can be seen when people "cash out refi" and pull equity out. Example: a property is worth $500,000 in today's market. If someone bought it for $800,000 and put $250,00 down, having a $550,000 mortgage, they are much less likely to walk away from it than a person who bought the same property for $200,000 and cashed out for a refi of $525,000 (taking a "profit" of $325,000) even though the first owner is $25,000 more under water than the second.

* even bankers.
I wasn't aware that no doc loans were available for 90-100% financing. I always thought these newer, creative loans required documentation. I totally see Greenspan pushing the teaser rates because the Bush administration used to love putting out the press releases on how home ownership were at all time highs.

I like your example. I always felt there are these psychological factors involved in mortgages. It's like the buyers that get caught up overpaying for a home in a bidding war when they just have barely enough for the down payment. I think many buyers are in over their heads when they outbid another potential buyer because they're playing with borrowed money. The loan is almost out of sight out of mind because of the 30 years they have to pay. If they paid 100% for the property with their own hard earned money and saw the bundles of cash on the table, I think there is a chance they may second guess their offer if they're paying more than what the home is "worth*".

*some define worth as any price a buyer is willing to pay.
 
Ace- Went to the above links, that could be a bait and switch ad. I do not think there is much of the No money down no doc loans going on.

You are not starting an argument, everything you write is 100% correct. The Government let the banks go wild. All the rules went out the window. As always, these new policy's made many wealthy, and the average Joe is going to pay the price.
The links aren't bait and switch. They're applicable if you have a high enough credit score among other things. Indymac Bank is located on the West Coast so they're in the middle of this shitstorm out in California. Due to this, they're one of the banks who have really tightened up their lending guidelines.

The new policies have also made the poor even poorer with the average Joe paying the price! It's a shame that I used self control when considering my purchase and decided to leave within my means. Now I possibly have to help bail out the greedy couple in Rancho Cucamonga, CA who had to have their 700k home in a gated community with a driveway big enough for their Hummer and M3.
 
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Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator
Yes (and I know that they are suposedly "private", but operate under Federal Charters and when the shit hits the fan, they aren't going to take down Wall Street, it will be a huge Gov't bailout. It's like the Port ). Intersting factoid from Freddie's site:"More than $500 billion: is the amount of home equity cashed out by millions of homeowners who have refinanced since 2002").
 

Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator
While Mr. Stansberry is correct in a lot of things he says, he leaves out some very important things.... enough to make his conclusions somewhat suspect. This single biggest one being that the equity parts don't go to zero on a default. All these loans are ultimately backed by real property. So, when a borrower defaults, the equity doesn't go to zero, it goes to what the net proceeds are on the real estate after forclosure and sale. A loss? D3finitely, but not a total one. In fact, there may a tiny silver lining that I haven't seen anyone talk about anywhere yet: if you look back and see my prior posts, I think you are going to see people walk away from their properties more easily these days because they have so little perceived equity. Well, that can be a saving grace: it is possible that this time the bad loans will be not much more than the home values. If that happens, the losses will be much lower than last time around when banks often got 30 cents on the dollar becuase people held onto their homes until things got SO bad that there was huge difference between the loan amount and the property value.

The RMBS he speak of are nothing new, nor are the problems with them. I was consulting for Salomon Bros when they started CMO's (Collateralized Mortgage Obligations) which are the grand daddy of all of this type of instrument. Since it was a public offering, they had to have an offering document, and thus needed to come up with a "valid" pricing model on the securities. So, one thing they had to do was show the risk, and that meant running pricing models under difference scenarious. Remember that some of the risk (at least the percieved risk at that time), wasn't getting defaults, but rather pre-payments of the underlying mortgages because as those get prepaid, your bond starts getting repaid at a more rapid rate than you had contracted for. So, we ran various scenarios of varying rates of pre-payment. But it was bullshit, because pre-payment doesn't really work that way. What happens is that if mortgage rates go up, no one refinances except when they sell, and if mortage rates go down, EVERYONE refinances. So, after not too long, CMO's got repaid too soon, and not only did the bond holders get their money back sooner than they had contracted for, it was in a scenario of falling interest rates, which mean both that even before getting paid off, the value of the bonds went down, and when they did get their money back, they couldn't put it into equivalent instruments and get the return which they had expected to get. Of course, in typical Wall Street style, they just called it something else (there's probably been 5 or 6 itterations till it eveolved to RMBS) and started back up again.

What may be even more important is that the engine that's powered the huge run-ups in house prices is fueled on money: lots of availalbe and cheap money means the engine runs fast. But if we close off the tap supplying the fuel, the engine dies. Well, given the current "crisis", it's pretty clear that this tap is going to be closing, and it's pretty clear to me what the result of a big lender tightening is going to be (with or without higher interst rates; it doesn't matter what the rates are if you're not getting the loan).
 

justme

homo economicus
Right! I remember having a conversation a few years ago with a colleague about fixed income markets and he was adamant that the biggest risks lay in prepayment. Of course, he's in his mid twenties and so that kind of ignorance is somewhat excusable.

I think we can both agree that lowered rates do nothing if there isn't any capital to lend. My biggest fear these days is that they'll grown desperate enough to fuck with the capital ratios for lending institutions.

Back to Fannie & Freddie, do you really think it's 100% certain that the government will honor commitments that are only implied? I mean, there's no written guarantee that I know of. I can see them coming through enough cash to stave disaster, but they just don't have the capital to save things if it all goes to shit.

Do you think they'd actually print the money necessary for a large scale bale out? I don't see any other way because the credit market for dollars just won't be that strong.
 
While Mr. Stansberry is correct in a lot of things he says, he leaves out some very important things.... enough to make his conclusions somewhat suspect. This single biggest one being that the equity parts don't go to zero on a default. All these loans are ultimately backed by real property. So, when a borrower defaults, the equity doesn't go to zero, it goes to what the net proceeds are on the real estate after forclosure and sale. A loss? D3finitely, but not a total one. In fact, there may a tiny silver lining that I haven't seen anyone talk about anywhere yet: if you look back and see my prior posts, I think you are going to see people walk away from their properties more easily these days because they have so little perceived equity. Well, that can be a saving grace: it is possible that this time the bad loans will be not much more than the home values. If that happens, the losses will be much lower than last time around when banks often got 30 cents on the dollar becuase people held onto their homes until things got SO bad that there was huge difference between the loan amount and the property value.

The RMBS he speak of are nothing new, nor are the problems with them. I was consulting for Salomon Bros when they started CMO's (Collateralized Mortgage Obligations) which are the grand daddy of all of this type of instrument. Since it was a public offering, they had to have an offering document, and thus needed to come up with a "valid" pricing model on the securities. So, one thing they had to do was show the risk, and that meant running pricing models under difference scenarious. Remember that some of the risk (at least the percieved risk at that time), wasn't getting defaults, but rather pre-payments of the underlying mortgages because as those get prepaid, your bond starts getting repaid at a more rapid rate than you had contracted for. So, we ran various scenarios of varying rates of pre-payment. But it was bullshit, because pre-payment doesn't really work that way. What happens is that if mortgage rates go up, no one refinances except when they sell, and if mortage rates go down, EVERYONE refinances. So, after not too long, CMO's got repaid too soon, and not only did the bond holders get their money back sooner than they had contracted for, it was in a scenario of falling interest rates, which mean both that even before getting paid off, the value of the bonds went down, and when they did get their money back, they couldn't put it into equivalent instruments and get the return which they had expected to get. Of course, in typical Wall Street style, they just called it something else (there's probably been 5 or 6 itterations till it eveolved to RMBS) and started back up again.

What may be even more important is that the engine that's powered the huge run-ups in house prices is fueled on money: lots of availalbe and cheap money means the engine runs fast. But if we close off the tap supplying the fuel, the engine dies. Well, given the current "crisis", it's pretty clear that this tap is going to be closing, and it's pretty clear to me what the result of a big lender tightening is going to be (with or without higher interst rates; it doesn't matter what the rates are if you're not getting the loan).
Interesting. Your a very bright guy, if you did not know that already.

In your opinion how big is the problem, and how bad of an effect will it have on the economy?
 

Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator
I don't know enough to say what effect it will have on the economy. I will say that I don't know if prices in Manhattan will continue to rise this year, level off, or fall. What I do think, however, is that whenever prices start to fall in NYC, there are no price support levels, and it's not going to be any 10% down soft landing. 50% wouldn't shock me. And if that happens, I can't think of a scenario where it doesn't take some big institututions down with it. And if that happens, I don't know how the overall economy doesn't feel substantial pain.
 
I am not in the biz, however, I had read that NYC prices kept going up, or was at least buoyed from falling in the past year or so when the housing market fell all over the US by foreigners coming into the US and buying up property in NYC while the dollar remains weak. However, in recent months, they seem not as eager to buy as the problems in the US economy are starting to filter out to and affect overseas markets.
 

Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator
Even more importantly, for the past 10 to 15 years, an awful lot of NYC Real Estate is bought off of Wall Street bonuses (more than foreign buyers). Well, if you look at the most recent NYC budget, there's a specific comment that the City estimates that 2007 profits on Wall Street to be shy of $17 billion, but 2008's profit will sink to below $3 billion.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/jan2008/nyc-j28.shtml

How do you think that will effect NYC Real Estate prices?
 
Good Article - Looks like I will paying higher Real Estate Tax.

I have noticed that small commercial buildings and multi family units in the boro's are coming down in price. Banks must be requiring a lot more cash down on these properties.
 
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