To War or Not to War?

[oddfellow4870]

Yipes, I haven't seen this much effort in posting since the glory days of JAG. Thank you gentlemen.

My point is real simple.

Teachers feel that preaching to children about saving the planet is perfectly fine. My son gives me regular reports. These mini sermons are NOT fact based. They are essentially statements of faith, theory or part of a personal value system.

This is a cultural thing. It's ok to push this agenda, legal or not.

But the ACLU would have a teacher in court in 10 minutes if they shared their personal faith in a traditional religion, especially if they were a southern evangelical ( which I once was, by the way, don't consider myself one now, but I still feel a distant connection ).

I find this replicated everywhere. Theme parks that are deisgned to entertain get real preachy about saving the planet. Schools, hotel rooms, the evening news, etc. It's not logical and the funny thing is that the State is supporting the establishment of this system.

 

[RichardNY]

Originally posted by oddfellow4870
Yipes, I haven't seen this much effort in posting since the glory days of JAG. Thank you gentlemen.

You are welcome. I must confess, when you threw me the challenge of "what is religion," my first reaction was to take a big gulp and then run for cover! I finally decided it was only fair to try to give you an answer.

Teachers feel that preaching to children about saving the planet is perfectly fine. My son gives me regular reports. These mini sermons are NOT fact based. They are essentially statements of faith, theory or part of a personal value system.
This is a cultural thing. It's ok to push this agenda, legal or not.

OK, I understand your point better. That to me is just poor teaching, especially if your child is being graded on giving the "correct" answer in a fill in the blank or multiple choice format of a test. It can be infuritating as all get out. I have gone through that a number of times with my sons. The same thing happens in college. Luckily there, I have not gone through it personally, but I do have friends that tell me horror stories.

But the ACLU would have a teacher in court in 10 minutes if they shared their personal faith in a traditional religion, especially if they were a southern evangelical ( which I once was, by the way, don't consider myself one now, but I still feel a distant connection ).

I understand your resentment here - although I truly do believe it is because of the separating out of religion in the First Amendment. Plus, teaching religion - whether mainstream traditional religion or some esoteric cult - truly is different, in my opinion. It is not just poor teaching. (N.B. - In the interests of full disclosure, I am a member of the ACLU.)

Thanks for the thought provoking, give and take, Oddfellow. I think you helped me stretch a bit in my thinking.

 

[pjorourke]

I know this sounds strange, but I largely agree with you here Richard.

The one point of disagreement is that I don't see any difference between a teacher preaching about tree hugging and religion. Both are forms of indoctrination, compounded by the teachers authority role, and neither one has any place in a public school system.

Would you accept me as a teacher to your son spouting off about my opinions on a variety of these subjects? I thought not!

 

[RichardNY]

Originally posted by pjorourke
I know this sounds strange, but I largely agree with you here Richard.

Actually, it doesn't sound strange to my ears. I have several friends who consider themselves Libertarians. On some points we go at each others' throats, but on others, we really do agree.

Would you accept me as a teacher to your son spouting off about my opinions on a variety of these subjects? I thought not!

Errrr, actually I would accept you, and I suspect that you would make an excellent teacher, for though you may be opinionated and have all the "wrong" opinions , I sense you would also tolerate someone having a different opinion, especially if they could back it up with facts and a rationale.

If, however, your position was graded as the only "correct" opinion, well, then you and I would be meeting in the principal's office (as opposed to the local federal court under the First Amendment).

I honestly don't mind my children receiving a plethora of diverse views. Both of my kids/young adults like debating issues with their old man, and that is fine by me. They are busy thinking and coming to their own conclusions, which is as it should be.

I don't even mind them learning about other religions - provided they are not graded on which religion is the right one. What I DO ojbect to is having my tax dollars pay for the teaching of religion.

 

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by RichardNY
What I DO ojbect to is having my tax dollars pay for the teaching of religion.

What I ojbect to is having my tax dollars pay for the teaching of opinions. To my mind, religion is just another set of opinions.

And yes, sadly, too many teachers grade on having the right or "correct" opinions.

 

[Reel Deal]

RichardNY...

Exactly what is wrong with teaching readin', cypherin', and 'rithmetic in school? Maybe a smattering of logic, critical thinking, and fishing. Why not leave ANY and ALL social/religious/ethinc/political indoctrination to the parents, where it belongs?

I think the problem we have is that these little blank slates don't know b***s*** when it is presented to them by a card-carrying member of the NEA.

Let's face it: one of the Communist Parties prime objectives for the taking from within of the US is the infiltration of the school systems with their ilk. To that end, they've done one helluva job.

Y'all should be proud.

But the rest of us should be even more vigilant.

 

[skagen]

Good teaching should include an overview of diverse or opposing points of view on each subject - not just in social studies but even in science, literature etc.

But what all are forgetting here is that schools in America are a faliure IN GENERAL. Take a look at the spelling skills of the average high school graduate; listen to them read out loud; examine their ability to think critically; test their knowledge of the world not even outside America, but within it - it is a pathetic output for 12 years of schooling.

So these schools are not doing a good job across the board - but how much pressure does anyone here put on govt to improve this - or to allocate appropriate levels of funding to education instead of continuing corporate welfare for instance? None. The most that anyone is concerned with is the quality of education in their zip code, everyone else be dammed - and no matter what, don't ask me to pay for it - that's communism, right?

The question of what points of view are taught would probably be irrelevant if people cared enough to ensure that the educational system was solid. Good teaching would recognize and overcome these concerns. But that isn't going to happend in this selfish country...

 

[oddfellow4870]

Reel Deal,

The reason why they don't stick to simple development of skills and knowledge is that too many of the kids have no values and aren't taught any at home. They are better behaved when they are held to a set of values and beliefs.

So they have a charter of nice, "clean" values that are not at all religious sounding and believe me, they push em: responsibility, team work, etc etc etc. I actually like a lot of it, but the fact is that human nature is to believe in something, so when you have any educational institution, there is a need to inject some values of some kind.

But by purging all religious values and practices, they have to build their own.

Read First Corinthians 13 sometimes. It's about love. Doesn't mention God. Does mention faith, but only briefly. If there is a better definition of it and one that is quite different than the kind we hear about in popular music (except Alanis song "No Strings Attached" which is quite good), I don't know what it might be. It's really quite good, for everyone.

If I had my way, you could share a lot of different parts of religions and let students hear (as Richard would say) a lot of different views and explore other value systems instead of having the public sector invent its own. Think about it. By removing all the other religions and building their own, aren't they establishing one that can't be opposed? How about some diversity?

 

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by skagen
Good teaching should include an overview of diverse or opposing points of view on each subject - not just in social studies but even in science, literature etc.

But what all are forgetting here is that schools in America are a faliure IN GENERAL. Take a look at the spelling skills of the average high school graduate; listen to them read out loud; examine their ability to think critically; test their knowledge of the world not even outside America, but within it - it is a pathetic output for 12 years of schooling.

Agreed!

So these schools are not doing a good job across the board - but how much pressure does anyone here put on govt to improve this - or to allocate appropriate levels of funding to education instead of continuing corporate welfare for instance? None. The most that anyone is concerned with is the quality of education in their zip code, everyone else be dammed - and no matter what, don't ask me to pay for it - that's communism, right?

The only good thing I can say about corporate welfare is that it tends to be more efficient than the education bureaucracy. Throwing more dollars at a failed educational system is no answer. This problem needs fundamental change – like competition.

 

[Reel Deal]

Originally posted by oddfellow4870
Reel Deal,

The reason why they don't stick to simple development of skills and knowledge is that too many of the kids have no values and aren't taught any at home. They are better behaved when they are held to a set of values and beliefs.

True. But I have a problem with a "governmental" solution. For better or worse, our society had values before onerous governmental intervention in the school system in the late 50's (please-no rants about segregation. None of us here were directly involved in that debate long ago.)

So they have a charter of nice, "clean" values that are not at all religious sounding and believe me, they push em: responsibility, team work, etc etc etc. I actually like a lot of it, but the fact is that human nature is to believe in something, so when you have any educational institution, there is a need to inject some values of some kind.

But by purging all religious values and practices, they have to build their own.

True. Of course "their" kind in the right kind, don't you know. Like it or not, multiculturalism, environmentalism, egalitarianism, and political correctness IS their religion. And they feel a compulsion to push it on us, especially the innocent children.


If I had my way, you could share a lot of different parts of religions and let students hear (as Richard would say) a lot of different views and explore other value systems instead of having the public sector invent its own.

Save it for after a child has mastered reading, writing, arithmetic, logic, and critical analysis. I didn't really get into it until a Jr. level "Comparitive Religion" class in college.

Think about it. By removing all the other religions and building their own, aren't they establishing one that can't be opposed?

Yup. They don't WANT opposition-that's the point. They want a social cartel. They want to control young minds.

How about some diveresity?

From Animal Farm: "All Pigs are created equal. But some are more equal that others".

Nuff said.

 

[pjorourke]

This thread is seriously off-topic it's off-topic topic.

 

[Reel Deal]

Originally posted by petehanse
George Bush is getting ready to strike Iraq between now and 11/30/02. I feel that it is a done deal and only a matter of time before the first strike. Senior Bush did not want to finish the job because he felt that getting rid of Sadam would only promote more instability in the region, and Bush junior wants to complete the job his father left undone. I am not fond of war, but I feel we should support our president and get this job done quickly. What are your thoughts?

Now we're on Off Topic...To War or Not to War?

I say set-'em on fire...

 

[TheNextBigThing]

Originally posted by skagen


Again I repeat to be "African" or "African-American" or "black" has ZERO correlation with religion - becuase people of that skin color follow many different religions.

So again, sure Kwanzaa is near christmas time, but so is New Years day. On top of that is is an ARTIFICIAL EVENT. Anyone who actually want to use Kwanzaa as a comparison has no business placing that event in the religious domain. Unless being black or whatever is a religion these days.

Its very scary how little Amricans even bother to learn about things going on in this very country - unless it related to other peoples private sexual activity or what they are wearing to the grammys..

Skagen,


Whooooa! I was only trying to explain why some people mistake Kwanzaa for a "religious" holiday. I'm not saying it is (I read my own earlier post on that topic), but the fact that Kwanzaa incorporates several traditions (lights, gifts etc...) that are long associated with Christmas, it's very easy to see how us dumb white Americans can be so confused. It has to make one wonder how this country got to be the greatest super power the world has ever known with it being run by dumb white[/i] guys, slave owners and a totally corrupt government.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Re: Re: To War or Not to War?

Originally posted by Reel Deal


Now we're on Off Topic...To War or Not to War?

I say set-'em on fire...

Was watching a program on the History Channel Sunday night about the first Gulf War. They interviewed an American pilot who was shoot down. This pilot was telling about his interogation by the Iraqi military. The Iraqi interogaters wanted to know in the worst way how they could protect their bridges. They asked if putting dirt on the bridges would protect them. The answer, no. They asked if planting trees on the bridges would protect them.
The answer, no. Finally they asked if there was any way to protect the bridges. The pilots answer, yea move'um. And that was 10 years ago. War is the ultimate test for weapons systems. And we've had 10 years to improve on those weapons.

Let's roll!