There is no honor among Hobbyists

[Daniel_NYC]

Alternative title: Slinkybender was right

When I first joined UG, we had the capability of e - mailing one another. That is if the poster you wanted to contact had selected that option. I had my e - mail turned on. Almost regularly I would receive inquiries from other posters and many lurkers.

They ranged from comments on my reviews, requesting further information, even asking if I had other information that I had not previously disclosed to the board. I answered every e - mail with honesty and what I thought was due diligence.

From that time there are many that still have my contact info and for the most part are quite honorable. I have even met many of you in person, and we have become friends. You have reciprocated in kind, and I thank you for that.

As it turns out, I did have information on some ladies that were looking for an extremely limited clientele. I always asked the women first if they would like to meet an aquantaince of mine. If they replied in the affirmative, I forwarded the requisite contact information to her. I let her make the contact. I expressed to these gentleman that these ladies were very new to the business and new nothing of TBD, UtopiaGuide, *** etc. I told them that if they asked how we knew each other, they were to remain vague, we were old friends or we were ****** buddies, whatever.

Well over the past 3 years I have came accross some very dishonorable people. I will outline cases below that do not speak specifically to any one event, rather they represent the general tactics some people have employed on this board.

 

[h. von bingen]

i can't wait for this!

 

[Daniel_NYC]

CASE # 1

I met this girl through Craig's, or Adult Friend Finder, or some other dating site. She would see me regularly for sessions that were a couple of hours long for the sum of $150.

She is in a financial bind, and I offer to introduce her to a couple of my friends. She is interested. Some of these gentleman were so pleased with her that they start telling her she is charging way too little, or she could get more or whatever.

Perhaps with her school schedule, she is unavailable at times. So these gentleman say something to the effect, I'll double your rate to $300 if you make time for me.

Perhaps they want to be BMOC and they tell their friends. End result is that this lovely lady has no more time for me at $150.

Either way, these beautiful women have no more time for Daniel.

Why? Because Daniel is a BLABBERMOUTH! A BLABBERMOUTH!

Or maybe Daniel is a kind hearted soul that likes to share......

 

[gordo]

DIDN'T THE GIRLS TELL YOU ?

" ALL MEN ARE PIGS ! "

" OFTEN FROM THE MOUTH OF BABES , COMES GEMS "

 

[Daniel_NYC]

CASE # 2

I meet some woman through some obscure dating site. I spend MUCH time cultivating a play for pay arrangement.

It works and is fantastic. She confides to me that she has done this when she was in college, or in a financial bind whatever. She inquires if I might have a few friends that are intersted. I reply that I might and in the following days introduce her to a couple of guys.

These guys looking to gain exclusivity with her, introduce her to UtopiaGuide where Daniel_NYC has four reviews of differrent ladies during the last month. He is careless and dangerous and is a walking breeding ground for every STD imaginable.

These women, brought down to earth and confronted with the reality of what they are doing, withdraw and no longer see anyone.

 

[Daniel_NYC]

CASE # 3

I introduce someone who I have a longstanding history with to a lady I frequent. They hit it off and get along famously.

Somehow this guy feels the need to disclose this woman's contact info to someone he doesn't know so well.

She figures, I know Daniel, he is a nice guy. He introduced me to his friend who is also a nice guy. Now his friend is introducing me to his friend.

The friend of a friend sees her, enjoys her and does everything except one thing, pay her.

Quess who gets an e - mail?

Yep, me.

Remember your friend that you introduced me too? Well he introduced me to one of his friends and he left without paying, What are you going to do about it?

My suggestion: I didn't introduce you to him, X did. Did you ****** X ?

Alternatively, the same scenario plays out, but the guy tries to force her or insists on her performing a service that she doesn't ordinarily offer such as BBFS.

In my mind, pay for play or not, that is considered rape.

 

[Daniel_NYC]

In Closing

How well do you know your fellow hobbyists?
Probably not at all.
The women probably know more about your fellow hobbyist than you do.

I have heard more than one story of purportedly nice guys who become abusive in session.

You do not know who you are actually talking too accross the World Wide Web.

While I would like to believe that my on board persona is very much like my real life personality, for some it is merely a facade.

In fact I know many posters here that have more than one handle and each handle has a unique personality.

One might be honest and straightforward, another incarnation may be rude and abusive. Another may be completely incoherent.

Given those three board "personalities" belonging to the same individual, who am I to form an opinion of that person IRL.

I have only one handle. If I have something to say, I say it under my name. You build credibility that way.

The majority of people in this world are users.

They will say whatever they feel is neccessary to get what they want. They have no honor. They don't respect the feelings of others. They are only your friend, till you have nothing left to offer them, at which point you are cast aside.

The sad part is this; these people will not see themselves here.
They think that what they are doing is O.K. Some have even had the nerve to ask for additional referrals after the woman has reported back to me what the guy pulled.

Slinky foresaw all of this, perhaps he experienced it himself.

The open and honest sharing of information is a wonderful thing among people who respect the source, and know how to respect their fellow human beings.

Without that repect, without realizing the inherent value of another, we truly are not a civilized society.

 

[billyS]

Dan, sounds like you got burned by trusting people you don't know. This is a very tricky thing. I too collected ******s addy's when it was possible and keep in touch with a number of hobbiest who have shared UTR info with me and visa versa. My main concern in meeting someone from the board is that if something ever goes wrong they have something to hold over me or that I might in fact actually know one of the hobbiest I have been communicating with. I know Rogue and Kromrider work fairly close to me and it seems BMM and Jimbo44 live in my area. What if I actually see these guys around town when I'm with my wife or kids? It would be too weird yet there are guys on this board I wouldn't mind getting together with. As far as this nice giy who is abusive, I wonder if it is the same guy Sexywhore was talking about in another thread? Both seem to like to force BBFS. Maybe this guy should be outted (not his real name but just his handles). I would hope he is not one of the guys I feed information too. For that reason I would like to know who it is. I would not like to vouch for this guy.

 

[Daniel_NYC]

I forgot CASE # 4

How about the guy who walked into 1F with all the printouts of reviews and scared Caroline half to death?

Probably was the same guy who showed her UG.

BillyS, it was more than one guy.

One guy forcibly performed BBFS, others have applied pressure to perform BBFS, Cum in their mouth, Greek etc.

The point is they were not the gentlemen in session that I thought they would have been.

 

[Daniel_NYC]

What started me off on this tirade was this:

I sent an e - mail to a fellow poster on this board. I believe he trusts me implicitly as I do him.

I was inquiring if he could give me the e - mail address of another.
He politely responded that he was through back-channelling. He has been burned on too many occassions and will no longer offer any assistance.

I don't know what prompted his change of policy, but I got the idea that it was similar to the cases I mentioned above. I can't say I blame him, as I have experienced it firsthand my self. I applaud his fortitude. Perhaps I should take a similar stance.

 

[mellowyellow008]

I agree with you Dan, nice guys finish last everywhere, especially here due to a few pigs. I think most of us here are gentlemen, but there are always bad apples.

 

[Happy Hooker]

Daniel, no offense, but how can you expect honor among johns? Especially johns that have never even met each other??????

This is a dog eat dog world. It's every dog for themselves.


But, just so it might help to make you feel better, there is also no honor among hookers.

 

[Wwanderer]

Re: In Closing

Originally posted by Daniel_NYC
While I would like to believe that my on board persona is very much like my real life personality, for some it is merely a facade

I have quoted his comment many many times, but there is a reason. I am constantly reminded of it by current events. The internet pioneer that said, "You see people through their own eyes on the net" was really onto something, imo. In many ways it is uniquely revealing.

-Ww

 

[elliot16]

I've dealt with many people over the internet. I've referred people to girls I've known and been referred by people to girls they've known. This has been with both people I've only met online and others I've met in IRL. With rare exceptions these situations have worked out well for me and for the people I've dealt with.

Perhaps I've been lucky but I've made real friends through my contacts on line and I believe that there is much benefit that can come from backchanneling with people who are decent legitimate and trustworthy. Not to be coy, polyannaish or dismissive of your concerns and complaints, but perhaps you're better at screening the girls than you are at screening the guys.

 

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by elliot16
I've dealt with many people over the internet. ...

In the same general spirit as e16's comments, I wonder if you are judging the people you meet on the internet by different standards than you do those whom you encounter in other ways. For example, I have met a lot of people at parties over the years and ended up having various sorts of interactions and arrangements with them. Some have turned out to be wonderful and honorable people while others have turned out to be untrustworthy or very disappointing in a variety of ways. However, it would not occur to me to stop going to parties or stop meeting new people at them because of the, so to speak, "bad apples".

Imo, if this is the sort of problem SB is trying to solve by turning off ***** (but I actually don't think that is exactly it), it seems to me to be the equivalent of sitting home on the weekend to avoid the risk of meeting the jerks that are most definitely out there.

-Ww

 

[*********]

So what is it exactly that you're complaining about? the fact that you're utr whores wised up to your taking advantage of them by keeping them for hours and paying them streetwalkers donations or the fact that you were exposed for being a bottom bitch john.

 

[elliot16]

Originally posted by Wwanderer

Imo, if this is the sort of problem SB is trying to solve by turning off ***** (but I actually don't think that is exactly it), it seems to me to be the equivalent of sitting home on the weekend to avoid the risk of meeting the jerks that are most definitely out there.

-Ww

I think that SBs motivations were quite different than what Daniel presupposes them to be. I doubt that protecting people from the consequences of the their misjudgements, stupidity, and misbehaviour was high on his list for doing so.

His concerns were primarily what that bad behaviour would do to the board. For example, one of the reasons it was discontinued was his concern that on board communication could be stiffled by proliferation of back-channeling and that useful posting would decrease as a result.

In another instance, some members posted disinformation online which they corrected to a select few by back-channeling. Clearly the board's purpose of honest exchange of information was being undermined by these tactics.

Finally, the ****** option was exploited by internet "pimps" who obtained freebies from girls for touting them to members through back-channeling. These are probably just a few of many reasons which led him to discontinue the ****** option.

 

[h. von bingen]

i'm not sure what danielnyc's gripe is:

a) is his gripe that girls stop seeing him after awhile or
b) is his gripe that a poster here would not give him a working girl's ***** address?

if it's a, well maybe he should pay market value (and isn't).
if it's b, is every poster obligated to turn over ***** information?

everybody complains about backchannel quid pro quo when it DOESN'T work in their favor, when it does: it's supremely fair.

i do think this thread is connected to the other thread in numerous of ways.

if you are a working girl either you are utr or not.
if you participate in touting utr girls and they become popular (and more expensive) who's fault is it?
if you play with fire you will get burned.

i happen to agree with elliot, i have met some very nice people -- but that being said, i am EXTREMELY selective. my only mistake i attribute to naievite.

 

[h. von bingen]

like the illiad and the odyssey

required reading:

http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18494

 

[elliot16]

Originally posted by Sexywhore
So what is it exactly that you're complaining about? the fact that you're utr whores wised up to your taking advantage of them by keeping them for hours and paying them streetwalkers donations or the fact that you were exposed for being a bottom bitch john.

Originally posted by HVB i'm not sure what danielnyc's gripe is:

a) is his gripe that girls stop seeing him after awhile or
b) is his gripe that a poster here would not give him a working girl's ***** address?

if it's a, well maybe he should pay market value (and isn't).

While I ROFLMAO over Sexywhore's response, I think that both HVB and her miss the fact that the CL "market" is broad and encompasses the standard internet pro market (both indy's and agencies) as well as the semi-pro or partime pro market.

In that market rates range widely and are much more variable and less standardized than the typical tiered internet provider rates. With this group of sex workers the rates are much more negotiable, based on circumstances and financial need as well as attraction and level of comfort with whom they're dealing. Not to say that the pro market doesn't have flexibility in it just that the range is much greater here.


I think that a discussion of "Market rate" should really be made in the context of the actual market we're talking about. What Daniel has done, however, by referring girls to his "friends" is to assist in transitioning these girls from the semi/partime pro to full pro status. In the process he exposed them to Johns who deal primarily with the internet pro market which is much more standardized in it's price structure. As it turns out they were willing to pay more (although still probably less than "market rate") to get what they wanted. Simple supply and demand.