" so, why don't you give me your number?"

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Wwanderer

Kids, don't try this at home
Originally posted by justlooking

1 - Moynihan immediatedly responded, "Already the mud starts flying."

2 - My complaint wasn't that "special arena" theory degrades conduct outside the arena. My complaint was that it degrades conduct inside the arena.

3 - That once a group of sleazy people get a pass on everyday morality, they then convince themselves that they can do virtually anything.

4 - Note that a strip club is unlike professional boxing in the key respect that in strip clubs there are no official rules.
1 - He was so great...

2 - I think it does both in most cases. Boxers are more likely to, say, bite a hunk out of their opponents ear and to assault someone outside the ring than are, say, chess masters. Poker players are probably more likely to try to cheat you in or out of a game too. Etc. So, maybe "special ethical arenas" are a bad thing, and certainly they at least have a downside, but that does not mean that they don't exist or have any validity.

3 - It is not my experience that most strippers and other strip clubs denizens will actually do "virtually anything", though some will perhaps. For example, in my personal experience most dancers will not clearly and explicitly promise you sexual services they then refuse to provide (in the private room); it is far more common to find ones who will instead try to mislead you with very suggestive but ultimately vague sounding promises of "satisfaction" and so forth. Again, it actually seems much the same to me in a poker game; very few players simply declare "I have a pair of queens" in the hole when they actually have 3-8 unsuited or something. Far more commonly they try to lead you into a false conclusion about their hand by the way they act and bet.

4 - I agree that this is an important distinction, although it is not a completely sharp one. In most contact sports there are also "unwritten rules" that are not directly enforced and about which the individual participants exercise their own "ethics" within the envelope of what the official rules allow. And, of course, strip club behavior is also limited, at least in principle, by ordinary laws (against pick pocketing or assault, for example) which are enforced by the normal mechanisms (police and courts).

-Ww
 
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Poker is different because the whole point of poker is deceit. Now you'll say that the whole point of strip clubs is deceit. So I guess that one place we differ is that I'm not sure I buy that. Meaning I'm not sure someone wandering (one w) into a strip club on a casual basis really is expecting to be taken.

As for laws providing a bottom line, the point I always make is that laws are not coextensive with morality. Only totalitarian nations seek to prescribe universal morality by law. So to the extent the law provides a bottom line, it's like a WAY bottom. No one could claim to be a good person (I know how retarded that term sounds) if all they did was comply with the law.
 
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Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator
Originally posted by justlooking
My complaint wasn't that "special arena" theory degrades conduct outside the arena. My complaint was that it degrades conduct inside the arena. That once a group of sleazy people get a pass on everyday morality, they then convince themselves that they can do virtually anything.

D........... D........... D............

Nope, still can't do it.
 

Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator
A) unlike sports, there's no referee with the ultimate power to judge presiding over each "play". Even in poker, there's someone there to enforce the rules, and rules do exist and thery aren't "fluid".

B) In sports, poker, etc, one of the players doesn't get "cute" and use the "illegality" of the game as a "gambit" to decieve the other party, implying that they can't make promises because it would be illegal, but implying that things which would be illegal would go on, but they simply can't talk about it because it's illegal. That's why I find the "she didn't promise anything" disingenuous, because most of the time that's part ot the "sting".

C) Explain to me why Real Estate Sales is not "special arena"?
 

Wwanderer

Kids, don't try this at home
Another stripperweb.com example/case

In this stripper web thread

http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/index.php/stripperweb/stripping/how-to/t9031.html

a newbie stipper reports that she is feeling guilty about the money drunk customers are spending on her, their expressions of "love" for her and their disappointment or anger when she won't go home with them after work etc. More experienced dancers comment and give her advice. Close to the original topic of this ancient thread if I recall correctly...

It is a fairly new thread with only a half dozen or so responses when I looked a little while ago, but so far I would say that the input she is getting is pretty much in line with the "special arena" model. More specifically, she is being told not to feel guilty about taking money, as much as she can get, from such guys and that it is OK because of the specific context that she is a dancer in a strip club which the guys willing entered etc. In other words she is being told that a different set of rules are in play there. Also, and more importantly in the context of my point, she is not being told that "anything goes" to get a drunk guy's money; indeed, most of the responses so far suggest that she observe specific rules or limits such as not directly lying and/or not ever promising to do anything outside the club.

Also a couple of (wise, imo) responses point out to her that the customers may well be trying to con her by manipulating her feelings of guilt or whatever. In other words, it seems pretty clear that at least some of the dancers responding to the question in this thread understand "the game" in the "arena" of a strip club in much the same way I do...as a situation in which the dancers and customers are trying to mutually con hustle each other within a set of loosely defined constraints.

Of course she may well receive quite different advice from others as time passes, but I again do not see any indication of a completely unrestrained "anything goes" consensus among the strip club denizens on stripperweb.

-Ww
 

justme

homo economicus
Using thw word 'ethics' in the same sentence as that thread is almost tasteless. Very few of those people show the ability to have any kind of judgement system. What many of them do show is a talent for rationalizing the behavior that benefits them the most.

Be suspicious of people whose ethics never hurt them.
 

Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator
Originally posted by justme
Be suspicious of people whose ethics never hurt them.
I view "ethics" in a similar way to "free speach": protecting "free speach" is when you are willing to fight for the rights of others to say things that you hate when they say them. "Ethics" is when you don't do something you really want to because you think it's "wrong".

That's why I hate all this "special arena" crap. It's all just "justification".
 

Wwanderer

Kids, don't try this at home
Originally posted by slinkybender

1 - "Ethics" is when you don't do something you really want to because you think it's "wrong".

2 - That's why I hate all this "special arena" crap. It's all just "justification".
1 - I have no particular problem with that notion (or definition). If the "special arena" notion is to have any validity at all in this (or other) contexts it must restrain their behavior in at least some ways...and I think it does in the examples I have given, of course.

2 - It might be for some people, but the notion only make sense if one can distinguish between "rules" with which one does not personally agree and "no rules at all". Returning to my usual example, poker, it is common enough to encounter a player, usually a newbie, who becomes infuriated, to an extreme in some cases, by behavior of other players that he/she regards as cheating but which is in fact quite normal or ordinary...for example saying something deliberately misleading about the quality of one's hand. I have seen such people leave the table cursing and shouting about being cheated on a couple of occasions. However, that does not mean that anything goes in poker; if a player pulls a card out of his sleave, to take the cliched example, he/she will soon discover that virtually no one thinks that is fair or acceptable play, even though it is something one might well want to do if it were allowed.

-Ww
 
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justme

homo economicus
I can mostly respect George Will even though I disagree with most of his viewpoints because he seems at relatively consistant in his morality.

What I object to is the kind of Christian that argues that the bible prohibits abortion while simultaneously supporting the death penalty.
 

justme

homo economicus
Originally posted by justlooking
This is off-topic, but I could easily reconcile those two positions. (The fetus/putative baby is innocent [OK, no talk about original sin]. The convicted murderer isn't.)
If were talking bible and ethical consistancy we really can't just disregard original sin.

And innocence really doesn't enter into that particular commandment.
 
To get back to the original topic of this thread; I have three experiences to share. There will be no contact information given, and I will not name any of the clubs, so if you are interested in this story, please read further, if not I understand.
I first had a dancer completely volunteer her number. I have since figured that if anything is going to happen, it is most likely the dancer will volunteer her number, and trying to get it might just be pointless. There are only two possibilities here, either the girl works outside the club for money, or she doesn’t. If she does, and you look like a possibility, she will see to it you get her number, if she doesn’t, trying to get it makes no sense, unless you are trying to get a legitimate, non-commercial date.
My first experience was with a Brazilian dancer who gave me her number as I was leaving the club. Totally unexpected. I called her a week later, took her to a motel, and got FS for $$. Not bad. She freaked me out, however, since she called my cell phone every week for three weeks after. I never returned her calls, and she soon stopped calling.
The second time, I had been getting lap dancers from another girl in a different club, and we had a good rapport going. One night she asked if I wanted a dance, and I told her I would much rather take her home with me for the evening. She replied that she was seriously giving it a lot of thought. We hooked up after the club closed at a nearby motel. She was expensive but worth it. $$$$ for everything, except Greek which is not my thing anyway. I was thrilled. I tried to get her number so I could see her again, she gave me a story about not having a phone etc. and suggested that I just come to the club if I wanted to see her again. She left the club soon after, and may have left the business. A night with me could cause that. I guess.
The third time was just a fantastic time which will follow below:.
 
My third time was by far the best, and I will go into greater detail. Since I lost contact with dancer number 2, I was looking for a new contact. Went back to the club, and saw a possibility. Spent three visits at the bar with this dancer, got a lap dance each time, and no hint of anything extra outside the club. Worse the mileage was very low. We did seem to get along well, and she would spend a fairly large time taking with me, with me only buying her a few drinks. I returned to the club for visit number four, determined that I would gently broach the subject with her. I wasn’t quite sure what to say, but I figured I would go with the flow and just sort of improvise as I went along. Much to my disappointment, she wasn’t working the night I decided to do this. I debated whether or not to leave, and return the next night, or look in another direction.
Then the hottest dancer came to me and started a conversation. I had totally ignored this dancer, since my rule is that the hotter dancer, generally the lower the mileage. I figure what the heck, my target girl isn’t here, and I might as well buy this lovely woman a drink, promising myself I wouldn’t blow money on what sure to be a very low mileage affair. For once, the little head was right. As we sat and drank together, we had a lot in common, even though she was less than half my age. I was getting turned on by her, because I felt a genuine connection. The little head took over, and I opted for a dance. The mileage was fantastic! After the dance, she volunteered her number. I was floored! I couldn’t believe my good fortune.
This girl was smoking hot, a fabulous person to talk to, and she wanted to see me outside the club, for a fee of course. I couldn’t wait to call her. Several days went by, and I called her. Got her machine, and left a message, never expecting to hear back from her. She called me about a half hour later. I was shocked. We set up a meeting.
The session was fantastic! Best DATY I have ever had. Best CBJ I have ever had. This girl was just fantastic. I wanted to get a divorce and .live with this woman forever, after this session!
The best part is, this girl seems like a terrific person that I would love to get to know better, and spend some time with. I realize this is strictly a commercial relationship, but I don’t care! I see this as a semi-pro thing that will be a perfect arrangement for me. I can’t wait to see her again!
 
So I guess the bottom line here is that after all the crap that goes on in this hobby, we sometimes find a good one. I guess that is what keeps us coming back for more.
No matter how smooth we think we are, or how clever or cunning, sometimes things just happen to turn out right. Now my only dilemma is going back to the bar, and fretting how my first target is going to feel when I don't get dances from her or spend any time with her anymore. Since my new find, I think it is pointless.
 
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Hey, I thought after a session with me they look to quit.....

NJ-I have learned one thing through my many, many, and often shitty years of hobbying.
Alot of girls, especially the ones that arent hard core providers, appreciate a person that treats them the way they want and expect to be treated.
Its not a big deal for alot of these young good looking women to fuck old men for cash, but it can be a big deal if the man is a real dickhead and treats the girl like a piece of shit.
Once a girl is comfortable in a mans company, any man, she will make the time spent together worth every cent, because she would much rather be with someone she knows, trusts, and feels safe with, than another person.


This is one of the biggest drawbacks for me as I hobby less and less in my middleaged years.
I still want to see new girls, all the new girls that pop up and advertise, or dont advertise, I dont care, Ill fuck any of them.
But, its so nice and comfy when I can go to a regulars apt, hang out, no time limits, no pressure, safety, the girl knows what I want, and its just so much more a relaxing time.
So every time I decide to dial the phone, for that new visiting eros girl, I think about the great time I will be passing up with one of my ATFs.

Strippers, escorts, indies, semipros....dont matter.
Like you said, all you need to do is find one good one.
 
Thank you BBM for responding to my post. I couldn't agree more with what you wrote. I think most of these young girls that will have sex with us 50 year olds for money do it because we treat them with respect, and treat them as people, with feelings and desires. Most of the young men I see around today, mostly friends of my kids, see women as disposable sex objects and treat them as such. No wonder some of these women appreciate an older man. They have a good time and earn some cash.
I know my current situation will end. This girl is between relationships, and doesn't do this when she is seeing someone. That is why I acted so quickly, this girl won't be around long. Some young guy will scoop her up, treat her like shit, and either dump or or get dumped after about a year. When it ends, it ends, but she will probably recommend me to other girls that are looking for a simliar arrangement. Can't ask for much more.
 
thanking me is ridiculous. I enjoy reading views of this hobby by other men in my situation.
Its so lonely here lately, Im wondering maybe Im one of the causes of it.
Noone wants to read my postings anymore. Dont know, but I do know Ill be around until slinky kicks me or death.
I hope that remark didnt scare the rest of the posters away.
 
BBM, I do read most of your posts. I see a lot of angst in a lot of what you write. After my experience last week, the first thing I wanted to do was tell somebody, anybody, about this wonderful experience. Of course, that is impossible. Nobody knows what I do, except me and the provider.
I read your material, and I see where you are coming from. One of the characteristics of the sex addict is the repeated failed attempts to quit. I was there once. I went through a period where I just went through every waking moment either trying to score or setting up my next score. Any and all extra cash went straight to the hobby. I tried to quit and couldn't
I laid off for two years, mostly out of fear of being snagged in an MP raid. It was hard, to stop, I was missing something that I truly enjoyed. Naturally, I went back in.
When I came back, I decided to put it in perspective. I would set aside a certain amount of money for hobbying. I wouldn't go over. I wouldn't give up other things to hobby. I now compare myself to the social drinker. I enjoy this hobby. The woman I saw last week was like a beautiful work of art, or a magnificent work of nature. I could never partake of her pleasures without the hobby.
I enjoy having sex with young, beautiful, smart women. I like the variety. I like the way they feel in my arms. I like the way they smell and taste. I see no difference in spending $$ to enjoy these pleasures, and spending that same money on a play, or a dinner. I don't feel guilty about spending that on a dinner, or a show, why should I feel bad about spending it on a woman for sex?
When I am low on funds, and have to curtail my activities, I feel deprived, like something is missing. In society we frown on people who enjoy spending monsy on sex. It is illegal. We are told people who do this, either on the paying end or receiving end, are bad people. I disagree.
Moderation is the key. I am doing something I enjoy without shirking my other obligations. If I drink too much, or eat to much the feeling is th esame if I hobby too much. I like the way I handle the hobby today.
All that being said, it is still rather sad that the mediocre experiences still out weigh the truly stellar ones. There is no bigger let down to me than a lousy or mediocre session. There is no greater thrill than a fantastic session where I have connected on some level with my provider. I felt on top of the world last week, as though I had made love to a goddess on a bed of rose petals. I still savor that moment. She is a treasure.
 
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