Negotiating Fees
- Thread starter Slinky Bender
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Re: Re: By my calculations,
Hey WW,
I know we all have had different experiences, but my own personal experience is that more "higher" priced providers have been clockwatchers than lower priced providers.
And I'm not talking about MPs here. Perhaps we should do a revised poll explicitly taking MPs out of the mix?
Hey WW,
I know we all have had different experiences, but my own personal experience is that more "higher" priced providers have been clockwatchers than lower priced providers.
And I'm not talking about MPs here. Perhaps we should do a revised poll explicitly taking MPs out of the mix?
Re: Re: Re: By my calculations,
You are right that it is not my experience, but it is also not the first time I have "heard" guys say that they get better service (in various ways, including clockwatching issues) from lower priced providers. I find it puzzling but do not know what else to say about it. My own experience is that quality correlates with price, but fairly weakly (i.e., lots of exceptions to the overall trend both up and down scale). I wonder if it might be partly a result of exceptionally good service at low prices and poor service at high prices being more memorable than the reverse. In other words, those sorts of exceptions stand out more in your memory when you think back over many years of hobbying and so mislead you (guys in general I mean, not you in particular) to some degree. But that is just a speculation.
As for your suggestion of excluding MPs from the discussion, or discussing them separately, that makes sense to me. I have a feeling that a lot of the disagreements on UG stem from the fact that different participants are talking about fairly different manifestations of the Biz. For example, I personally do more than half of my hobbying abroad. Now since we are mostly talking about the situation in the US, and even specifically in NYC, here I try to base my comments only on my domestic hobbying (I like the sound of that phrase!), but nevertheless I am sure that a lot of my attitudes and general gut feelings are strongly influenced by the experiences I have in other countries.
-Ww
You are right that it is not my experience, but it is also not the first time I have "heard" guys say that they get better service (in various ways, including clockwatching issues) from lower priced providers. I find it puzzling but do not know what else to say about it. My own experience is that quality correlates with price, but fairly weakly (i.e., lots of exceptions to the overall trend both up and down scale). I wonder if it might be partly a result of exceptionally good service at low prices and poor service at high prices being more memorable than the reverse. In other words, those sorts of exceptions stand out more in your memory when you think back over many years of hobbying and so mislead you (guys in general I mean, not you in particular) to some degree. But that is just a speculation.
As for your suggestion of excluding MPs from the discussion, or discussing them separately, that makes sense to me. I have a feeling that a lot of the disagreements on UG stem from the fact that different participants are talking about fairly different manifestations of the Biz. For example, I personally do more than half of my hobbying abroad. Now since we are mostly talking about the situation in the US, and even specifically in NYC, here I try to base my comments only on my domestic hobbying (I like the sound of that phrase!), but nevertheless I am sure that a lot of my attitudes and general gut feelings are strongly influenced by the experiences I have in other countries.
-Ww
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Yep, that was my experience, too. Perhaps it's a power thing... those guys who are trying to establish an upper hand from the get-go in regards to price are also going to be testing you in every other way.
I found haggling icky. I almost never did it at the massage parlor. I would just say the price in a matter-of-fact way, and stick to it. The vast majority of clients picked up on the fact that I wasn't going to negotiate, and let it go at that. I believe my web site, when I was an indy, let them know it wasn't up for negotiation, but I think I phrased it in a way that made it sound like *I* wouldn't be trying to haggle with *them* for "extras."
I got *****s asking for discounts, once in a blue moon. I just deleted them.
I found haggling icky. I almost never did it at the massage parlor. I would just say the price in a matter-of-fact way, and stick to it. The vast majority of clients picked up on the fact that I wasn't going to negotiate, and let it go at that. I believe my web site, when I was an indy, let them know it wasn't up for negotiation, but I think I phrased it in a way that made it sound like *I* wouldn't be trying to haggle with *them* for "extras."
I got *****s asking for discounts, once in a blue moon. I just deleted them.
Epiphany regarding price/performance in my experiences:
The women I tend to see these days are 30ish Asian women of varying (but never great, at best good) looks. They work out of apartments and advertise as body rub services in the local alternative press. Usually the apartment has one or two women working here on a tourist visa (or perhaps no visa at all). There is a house fee (generally about $50 for the hour) and the rest is negotiable with the woman. Generally this works out to an extra $20 for a hj, $40 for a bj, and $100 for FS. Each girl has her own pricing, though and FS is not universally available. Rates are seldom sticky, and I have seen no degradation in service after I ask for a discount on fs (might as well put something on topic in this post).
Generally the negotiations go:
girl: (universal sign language for hand job) Do you want?
me: how much?
girl: (gives pricing with more sign language)
me: hmm, well I only have (some amount between BJ and FS). What do you want to do?
girl: (80% of the time) OK, FS.
(20% of the time) OK, BJ.
Anyway, back to my epiphany:
I think that the real key to finding great service is to find a woman that has the right combination of whatever (and we all have our theories) to provide you with intimacy at a price. I'm fairly certain what you pay a woman doesn't have a tremendous amount to do with how well she can cast away her natural aversion to fucking you. I don't think you can take most women who give lousy service, tip them a ton, and have them give exceptional service*.
Now, I think that what does happen to women that have the right brain chemistry to provide convincingly simulated intimacy is that they're greater level of service drives up demand and you end up with positive price pressure. I think this is what explains the positive correlation between price and service. But it also explains the tremendous amount of aberation from that correlation. Some women for whatever reasons** won't react to this increased demand with greater prices, but most will. I think that the internet and the review system probably benefits less attractive women with exceptional service the most.
Looking at my own situation I see that women who provide exceptional service (about 20% of them) have very little opportunity to realize higher fees. They are generally ignorant of the greater market, or even the value of a dollar to an average American. They are not terribly free to take a job at another establishment where rates may be higher. They generally work in the United States for too brief a period (a few months, normally) to develop and kind of 'brand'. I think this 20% supplies great service for no other reason than that's the way they have sex for money. I think this 20% just has the right mentality to fake emotion with a (repulsive) stranger.
Often when there is some discussion on the necessity of extenuating circumstances for a woman to sell sex or perhaps more to the point to sell faux intimacy, I have jl conced that the observation doesn't necessarily apply to non Americans. Having had unusually extensive conversations with these women and American strippers and prostitutes, I see a very different sort of attitude about commercial sex. These Asian women seem much more able to depersonalize sex and compartmnetalize it into a simple physical act. That isn't to say that they do not exhibit a sense of shame about their job, more that they rationally see it balanced out by the money. I think it helps that they are providing the service in a foriegn country, and that they do little besides provide the service while they are here. I think this allows them to excise the entire experience from their lives. Perhaps more to the point, I think it allows them to believe they will be able to do this (I've often wondered how well it works out for them).
I think that this ability to compartmentalize takes the place of the sexual or emotional trauma, addiction, or extreme economic need (most of these women have jobs in their home countries, they just want to pick up a big packet of extra money) that seems to be necessary for most American sex workers. Unfortunately (for me), this compartmentalization also tends to produce sessions that are fairly cold and impersonal. Crazy girls can make you think they really want you, I think, because their insanity allows them to convince themselves that they want you. Without that kind of motivation, the sessions are more like a service than sex. The sexual service seems more like a clinical extention of the massage, rather than the massage feeling like a pretense for the sex.
Still, every once and a while you do find a woman that for whatever reason (and I haven't been able to eke out what this is, but I'm not certain that it's the same reasons as American women) can give a warm session. Of course, the market makes certain (well justified) assumptions about the service level in this segment, so these exceptionally warm AMP workers tend to be extraordinary values.
And that's why I spend my money in this segment.
* - I do think that you can make small leaps in service with extra money (or charm, or whatever), just nothing substantial.
** -
a) It's hard to raise rates on existing clients, and new clients are generally brought in by looks only, so a less attractive girl with great service may not be able to price accordingly
b) Some women lack the business accumen to handle price jumps accordingly
c) Some women may have less control over their pricing (agencies, brothels) and perhaps these places don't have variable pricing
The women I tend to see these days are 30ish Asian women of varying (but never great, at best good) looks. They work out of apartments and advertise as body rub services in the local alternative press. Usually the apartment has one or two women working here on a tourist visa (or perhaps no visa at all). There is a house fee (generally about $50 for the hour) and the rest is negotiable with the woman. Generally this works out to an extra $20 for a hj, $40 for a bj, and $100 for FS. Each girl has her own pricing, though and FS is not universally available. Rates are seldom sticky, and I have seen no degradation in service after I ask for a discount on fs (might as well put something on topic in this post).
Generally the negotiations go:
girl: (universal sign language for hand job) Do you want?
me: how much?
girl: (gives pricing with more sign language)
me: hmm, well I only have (some amount between BJ and FS). What do you want to do?
girl: (80% of the time) OK, FS.
(20% of the time) OK, BJ.
Anyway, back to my epiphany:
I think that the real key to finding great service is to find a woman that has the right combination of whatever (and we all have our theories) to provide you with intimacy at a price. I'm fairly certain what you pay a woman doesn't have a tremendous amount to do with how well she can cast away her natural aversion to fucking you. I don't think you can take most women who give lousy service, tip them a ton, and have them give exceptional service*.
Now, I think that what does happen to women that have the right brain chemistry to provide convincingly simulated intimacy is that they're greater level of service drives up demand and you end up with positive price pressure. I think this is what explains the positive correlation between price and service. But it also explains the tremendous amount of aberation from that correlation. Some women for whatever reasons** won't react to this increased demand with greater prices, but most will. I think that the internet and the review system probably benefits less attractive women with exceptional service the most.
Looking at my own situation I see that women who provide exceptional service (about 20% of them) have very little opportunity to realize higher fees. They are generally ignorant of the greater market, or even the value of a dollar to an average American. They are not terribly free to take a job at another establishment where rates may be higher. They generally work in the United States for too brief a period (a few months, normally) to develop and kind of 'brand'. I think this 20% supplies great service for no other reason than that's the way they have sex for money. I think this 20% just has the right mentality to fake emotion with a (repulsive) stranger.
Often when there is some discussion on the necessity of extenuating circumstances for a woman to sell sex or perhaps more to the point to sell faux intimacy, I have jl conced that the observation doesn't necessarily apply to non Americans. Having had unusually extensive conversations with these women and American strippers and prostitutes, I see a very different sort of attitude about commercial sex. These Asian women seem much more able to depersonalize sex and compartmnetalize it into a simple physical act. That isn't to say that they do not exhibit a sense of shame about their job, more that they rationally see it balanced out by the money. I think it helps that they are providing the service in a foriegn country, and that they do little besides provide the service while they are here. I think this allows them to excise the entire experience from their lives. Perhaps more to the point, I think it allows them to believe they will be able to do this (I've often wondered how well it works out for them).
I think that this ability to compartmentalize takes the place of the sexual or emotional trauma, addiction, or extreme economic need (most of these women have jobs in their home countries, they just want to pick up a big packet of extra money) that seems to be necessary for most American sex workers. Unfortunately (for me), this compartmentalization also tends to produce sessions that are fairly cold and impersonal. Crazy girls can make you think they really want you, I think, because their insanity allows them to convince themselves that they want you. Without that kind of motivation, the sessions are more like a service than sex. The sexual service seems more like a clinical extention of the massage, rather than the massage feeling like a pretense for the sex.
Still, every once and a while you do find a woman that for whatever reason (and I haven't been able to eke out what this is, but I'm not certain that it's the same reasons as American women) can give a warm session. Of course, the market makes certain (well justified) assumptions about the service level in this segment, so these exceptionally warm AMP workers tend to be extraordinary values.
And that's why I spend my money in this segment.
* - I do think that you can make small leaps in service with extra money (or charm, or whatever), just nothing substantial.
** -
a) It's hard to raise rates on existing clients, and new clients are generally brought in by looks only, so a less attractive girl with great service may not be able to price accordingly
b) Some women lack the business accumen to handle price jumps accordingly
c) Some women may have less control over their pricing (agencies, brothels) and perhaps these places don't have variable pricing
From Ww's ATF
I am not nearly as "busy" as I was before. So my comments may not reflect other providers' experiences. I have scaled back on purpose because I just have so many things to do with my time. Life is soooo short.
But basically I have found that setting a price and sticking to it is all around a good thing. It simply separates the chaff from the wheat. I imagine all providers have experienced being stood up which can be a real pain (in my case I am outcall only so to go somewhere and then find no one in is very demoralizing).
I have a discounted time of day as part of my price menu. So when someone asks for a discount I answer promptly, of course, I would be happy to see you for xx amount if it is between such and such a time. (Basically I call it the lunch special). That basically takes care of it.
I lose a lot of customers I'm sure. But I'm OK with that. I can barely handle the ones I've got.
There has to be some sort of starting point that I have to be comfortable with. In my case the price is settled in advance of meeting. I hate talking about money on the spot. If someone makes me that uncomfortable, then I will of course give them my professional best but in the back of my mind I am thinking that if they don't call again, it would be one less unpleasance in my life.
Once I meet someone (and they meet me) we may end up in a long term relationship which will SOMETIMES become more involved then just sex. In this case the lines become fuzzy. There has to be money involved because that is how I make my living. BUT there are many ways to extend the overall experience, so that both of us feel like we are enjoying ourselves and getting what we need out of the relationship, without it being purely commercial.
Hi PJ. I haven't been on this board in .... a year?... at least. It's fun to see what you all do in in your bored moments!
Hot in Pasadena (up to 85 degrees today!) Hugs, Hannah
PS. Ww thinks that I'm worth more than I charge. But I can't charge much more and still be democratic.
I am not nearly as "busy" as I was before. So my comments may not reflect other providers' experiences. I have scaled back on purpose because I just have so many things to do with my time. Life is soooo short.
But basically I have found that setting a price and sticking to it is all around a good thing. It simply separates the chaff from the wheat. I imagine all providers have experienced being stood up which can be a real pain (in my case I am outcall only so to go somewhere and then find no one in is very demoralizing).
I have a discounted time of day as part of my price menu. So when someone asks for a discount I answer promptly, of course, I would be happy to see you for xx amount if it is between such and such a time. (Basically I call it the lunch special). That basically takes care of it.
I lose a lot of customers I'm sure. But I'm OK with that. I can barely handle the ones I've got.
There has to be some sort of starting point that I have to be comfortable with. In my case the price is settled in advance of meeting. I hate talking about money on the spot. If someone makes me that uncomfortable, then I will of course give them my professional best but in the back of my mind I am thinking that if they don't call again, it would be one less unpleasance in my life.
Once I meet someone (and they meet me) we may end up in a long term relationship which will SOMETIMES become more involved then just sex. In this case the lines become fuzzy. There has to be money involved because that is how I make my living. BUT there are many ways to extend the overall experience, so that both of us feel like we are enjoying ourselves and getting what we need out of the relationship, without it being purely commercial.
Hi PJ. I haven't been on this board in .... a year?... at least. It's fun to see what you all do in in your bored moments!
Hot in Pasadena (up to 85 degrees today!) Hugs, Hannah
PS. Ww thinks that I'm worth more than I charge. But I can't charge much more and still be democratic.