Ethical Question Re traveling to foreign counties to engage in commercial sex

[Thorn]

OK this can lend itself, like most questions that could allow us to fall into judging rather than simply discussing, to heavy handedness and bad manners.

The rules, should the assembled decide this is a topic worth discussing, are that those who partake should keep personalities out of it. Debate the topic, not the person. Keep it civil and keep it on point.

Thanks.

 

[Thorn]

On the topic

It occurs to me that this being a site where commercial sex is discussed in the open it is an ideal place to ponder the questions that can arise from traveling abroad when the major purpose of the sojourn is the seeking of abundant and inexpensive commercial sex.

One one end of the spectrum can it be said that doing so is taking advantage of underprivileged women in those countries who, perhaps due to poverty and lack of other ways to make a living wage, forced into sex work?

On the other end can it equally be said that these women would be dealing with poverty regardless, still have limited opportunities and thus, perhaps, winding up in the sex industry anyway but that travelers bringing in money allow them to do so for better wages than they might see if they didn't see tourist trade? Could it be that such customers are a benefit to them?

What say you? Where do you fall on the question of people, the vast majority of them men, traveling abroad from first world nations to seek sex in third world nations?

 

[emott4cuad]

I agree and respect your opinion on how unfortunate certain places in the world are viewed upon as providers of commercial sex..

There is certainly a vast amount of unfortunate individuals that are forced or sold into the industry.Individuals living in these developing nations are unfortunately subject to choices that may be viewed upon as unfair and or demoralizing.
However in some of these nations their is no gun to the head of those that enter the sex industry unwillingly. It is sad to say but true that in some of these nations the locals will do what ever is necessary to stay alive and care for their family. Whats even more interesting is that because of the high demand for such these nations are frequently visited by our own ladies from the States and other nations in order to share the profits.
Yes, our dollars may end up in the hands of people with wrong intentions and sex slaves but in the long run it does help those in need to a certain extent although the cost of such is dramatically low and unjust.

Take a second to think of those living here on U.S soil illegally and working the massage parlors etc...the only difference here is that they are protected to some extent and provided with medical assist along with other advantages that are not made available to those overseas,so I guess it is not only overseas but here in our own backyard where individuals take advantage of underprivileged women and our dollars unfortunately will somehow end up contributing to the sex trade here...just my thoughts...

 

[Scott68]

There are many variables one must consider when answering this question..............

Can one find those things here?
Is one looking for something that may be considered illegal here?

The term "exploit" is used too loosely because as discussed, many presume that the majority of commercial sex workers are in one way or another, slaves.

In some countries women choose this work for one reason or another. In some countries, the taboo of the sex trade has less of a stigma attached.

The "endentured slave" situation does exist throughout the world, sometimes the girls are tricked, kidnapped, sold into it. Others, make the choice.

The bottom line is I do think it is just plain wrong to engage in activities with women who are held against their will in the commercial sex trade, even if I think it is only a small percentage of what exists out there.

 

[Scott68]

Can one find those things here?
Is one looking for something that may be considered illegal here?

The term "exploit" is used too loosely because as discussed, many presume that the majority of commercial sex workers are in one way or another, slaves.

In some countries women choose this work for one reason or another. In some countries, the taboo of the sex trade has less of a stigma attached.

The "endentured slave" situation does exist throughout the world, sometimes the girls are tricked, kidnapped, sold into it. Others, make the choice.

The bottom line is I do think it is just plain wrong to engage in activities with women who are held against their will in the commercial sex trade, even if I think it is only a small percentage of what exists out there.

I forgot to add, when poverty has led a woman into this line of work in a foriegn country and we go there for cheaper sex, I see no ethical crossroad per se. We can't compare what we know, or our standards to others, that is where the confusion is.

How many women have a goal when they enter into this "trade"? How many go back after they miss the potential for quicker money?

 

[DoctorBeaver]

Quebec Analysis

You guys are looking at this issue strictly in terms of economics and it is a flawed analysis.

I have travelled to Montreal, Quebec and seen escorts there for many years. Although escorts there are much cheaper than the equivalent in the USA, there are also a lot more ladies working because: (a) outcall escorting is legal in Quebec as long as the escort is over 18 years old, and (b) it's socially and culturally much more acceptable to work as an escort in Quebec than it is in the USA. As a result there are a lot more choices, and the prices for similarly situated talent in Quebec are about half, or less, than in the USA. Most market price outcall escort agencies in Montreal are charging $180/hour for ladies who are equivalent in talent to ladies that are priced at $300-$500 in the USA. I know this from experience - over 10 years in both countries.

Thus there are zero ethical questions about hobbying in Canada. I think the same social/cultural analysis also would apply to Germany and many European countries, though things are not as cheap there as they are in Canada.

 

[emott4cuad]

I must say it is a topic that obviously is hard to answer without involving personal feelings...I believe we all have valid points to make and it is safe to assume we feel that women should have the choice to enter the industry at will and under their own conscious.

 

[puffin]

...Thus there are zero ethical questions about hobbying in Canada. I think the same social/cultural analysis also would apply to Germany and many European countries, though things are not as cheap there as they are in Canada.

Are you saying a 200 dollar/hour girl can readily be found for $125? Mon Dieu!

 

[Bandaid]

I feel the ethical obligation we have when hobbying abroad is to pay the girls well by the standards where we're visiting, don't take advantage of her powerlessness, and to be kind and respectful. I'd never want to be thought of as the Ugly American.

 

[Monk]

Really, if you think about it (and we never really discuss this here), they're the same set of ethical obligations that we operate under here. For example, I stay away from the Asian massage places because it's never clear to me whether the girls at these places are working of their own free will, or being forced to pay off the fee some smuggler charged them for sneaking them into this country. It's not as if the very same issues you're concerned with abroad aren't going on here in New York. We may not choose to acknowledge them here on this board, but they exist nonetheless.

 

[q32003]

Where do you fall on the question of people, the vast majority of them men, traveling abroad from first world nations to seek sex in third world nations?

Assuming that the women in question are doing it primarily because they need the money and don't have other options, and assuming that it to us foreigners is "very cheap": Yes, I think it's immoral.

 

[q32003]

Really, if you think about it (and we never really discuss this here), they're the same set of ethical obligations that we operate under here. For example, I stay away from the Asian massage places because it's never clear to me whether the girls at these places are working of their own free will, or being forced to pay off the fee some smuggler charged them for sneaking them into this country. It's not as if the very same issues you're concerned with abroad aren't going on here in New York. We may not choose to acknowledge them here on this board, but they exist nonetheless.

A very good point. I've avoided them as well.... well.... at least the FS ones.

 

[puffin]

These women are often driven to do what they do by circumstances that are almost unbearable to them, and to be a sensitive caring client (who pays well enough) and offers them some level of affection as a fellow human being is often a good thing. So I am not so guilt ridden at all, in fact I see a spark of real gratitude when I bring a girl chocolate and a five dollar bouquet of flowers. As to human trafficking, yeah well I'm not into Asians, Mexicans or minors, so I think I steer clear enough of that.

 

[donquixote04]

I feel the ethical obligation we have when hobbying abroad is to pay the girls well by the standards where we're visiting, don't take advantage of her powerlessness ...

I'm in basic agreement with this. I'd qualify it by pointing out that the clearest criterion is that the provider should be making the choice to be a sex worker out of free will, and not be a slave or in any other way be coerced.

The gray line that is difficult to draw, here in the US or internationally was hinted at by q32003:

Assuming that the women in question are doing it primarily because they need the money and don't have other options ...

At what point does "they don't have any other options" equate to coercion? I'm not sure I know where to draw that line.

 

[q32003]

the clearest criterion is that the provider should be making the choice to be a sex worker out of free will, and not be a slave or in any other way be coerced.

The gray line that is difficult to draw, here in the US or internationally was hinted at by q32003:


At what point does "they don't have any other options" equate to coercion? I'm not sure I know where to draw that line.

yeah, it's difficult to draw that line.

 

[Thorn]

However in some of these nations their is no gun to the head of those that enter the sex industry unwillingly. It is sad to say but true that in some of these nations the locals will do what ever is necessary to stay alive and care for their family.

Ok, but if that statement begs the question be asked that IF the decision is based upon doing, "whatever is necessary to stay alive and/or care for their family", does that actually constitute free will?

If you are doing something because doing it is the only way to stay alive is that choice?

Whats even more interesting is that because of the high demand for such these nations are frequently visited by our own ladies from the States and other nations in order to share the profits.

In the countries I am thinking about the few women from the US who travel willingly into these regions to work in the sex industry aren't doing so on the same level as the local women do. They do so either as carpet bagging profiteers who act as a familiar face to front operations that sell the local women to travelers or to avail themselves to the local wealthy men who fancy European and U.S. women.

Yes, our dollars may end up in the hands of people with wrong intentions and sex slaves but in the long run it does help those in need to a certain extent although the cost of such is dramatically low and unjust.

Certainly possible. As I stated above it is possible that a market expanded by foreign business creates additional demand that raises prices, thus profiting women in the local sex industry. It may also be that educated travelers could be [acknowledging being totally subjective here] a more pleasant experience that dealing with the local men. Particularly if more money is being spent on them in the process.

Take a second to think of those living here on U.S soil illegally and working the massage parlors etc...the only difference here is that they are protected to some extent and provided with medical assist along with other advantages that are not made available to those overseas..

What ever gave you that idea.

The women working in the legitimate massage industry in the U.S. are almost all independent contractors and the only health insurance they get are what they purchase for themselves.

Those that work in the massage industry connected to the sex trade have working conditions not much different than their foreign counterparts. The major difference is that they command higher fees as they are in greater demand and shorter supply. Though it is arguable as to how much of those greater fees they actually see.

,so I guess it is not only overseas but here in our own backyard where individuals take advantage of underprivileged women and our dollars unfortunately will somehow end up contributing to the sex trade here...just my thoughts...

A different question, but a legitimate one.

 

[Thorn]

Can one find those things here?
Is one looking for something that may be considered illegal here?

Not by the terms of the original question asked.

The term "exploit" is used too loosely because as discussed, many presume that the majority of commercial sex workers are in one way or another, slaves.

The original question presumes nothing at all. It is merely asked what people think of the topic. Any bias brought into it is carried by the respondents.

The bottom line is I do think it is just plain wrong to engage in activities with women who are held against their will in the commercial sex trade, even if I think it is only a small percentage of what exists out there.

Why do you think it is a small percentage? Those that think it is a large percentage, why do you think that? Myself, I don't pretend to know as like Will Rogers, "I only know what I read in the papers."

 

[Thorn]

You guys are looking at this issue strictly in terms of economics and it is a flawed analysis.

I have travelled to Montreal, Quebec and seen escorts there for many years. Although escorts there are much cheaper than the equivalent in the USA, there are also a lot more ladies working because: (a) outcall escorting is legal in Quebec as long as the escort is over 18 years old, and (b) it's socially and culturally much more acceptable to work as an escort in Quebec than it is in the USA. As a result there are a lot more choices, and the prices for similarly situated talent in Quebec are about half, or less, than in the USA. Most market price outcall escort agencies in Montreal are charging $180/hour for ladies who are equivalent in talent to ladies that are priced at $300-$500 in the USA. I know this from experience - over 10 years in both countries.

Thus there are zero ethical questions about hobbying in Canada. I think the same social/cultural analysis also would apply to Germany and many European countries, though things are not as cheap there as they are in Canada.

While I see a lot I can agree with in your statement, while it is less difficult for a woman to work as an escort in parts of Canada [Quebec, British Columbia] it is not without stigma associated with it.

I don't pretend to know how many women in those two provinces work in the sex industry totally as a matter of free will [ie, having multiple options but choosing sex work as a primary source of income either though there are other options open to them or as a secondary choice to supplement income made from other, non-sex related work].

 

[Thorn]

So I am not so guilt ridden at all..

Just a point of order...

No one is assessing guilt here. It is a clinical discussion on the topic of ethics.

 

[Ruv Me Rong Time!!]

thorn ... i wanted to make sure that you knew that i was not trying to say that your comments were out of place or unwanted over in Asia.