Recycled hopefully. This isn’t your average car battery that you change yourself and just toss in the garbage. These are monsters which would probably require you to turn in your old one to get a new one. But if you argument is pollution of batteries, it’s not about a car anymore it’s about human nature. Which a whole new thread can be started and an endless argument Can ensue.
Tesla Motors Talk
- Thread starter Ace111
- Start date
Although I am not smart enough to intelligently talk about the long term effects on the environment, I think about the trillions of dollars being spent on electric energy and the resources needed to produce these batteries ( lithium mining for example).. Using that money, could science have found another way to reduce carbon emissions from gasoline engines..
I refuse to accept that gasoline engines are just going to go away in 15-20 years- as claimed by GM/Ford etc
I refuse to accept that gasoline engines are just going to go away in 15-20 years- as claimed by GM/Ford etc
Although 99% of lead acid batteries are recycled in the US only 5% of lithium ion batteries are recycled.
I was involved (let’s leave it at — nothing to do with EV’s) the materials below.
Here are some facts about the batteries:
Worse than what do you do with worn out Li batteries is how do you get the materials needed to make them.
Raw materials needed are cobalt, rare earth elements, and of course lithium.
Cobalt is particularly bad as its mining products hazardous tailings and slags and nearby communities. Most of the stuff in mined in the Congo by workers (men, women and children ) use hand tools. Not safe and not healthy process (no OSHA there)— but hey, at least its helps those that can afford it drive around in $80,000 Tesla.
Lithium is mined either in Austrilia, Argentina, Bolivia or Chile. The process uses large amounts of ground water (much more than used in I. C. vehicles) depriving local farmers of water for their crops — but hey, they can always work in lithium mining.
Finally, rare earths almost exclusively come from China(in fact China threatened to cut off them when Trump imposed tariffs on China) and besides batteries are used in all kinds of high performance motors, cell phones and products such as commercial and military RADAR, etc. Mining of the stuff requires removal of radioactive contaminants.
The are called Rare earths for a reason and right now EV's (and hence usage of the stuff) are relatively small quantities.
I was involved (let’s leave it at — nothing to do with EV’s) the materials below.
Here are some facts about the batteries:
Worse than what do you do with worn out Li batteries is how do you get the materials needed to make them.
Raw materials needed are cobalt, rare earth elements, and of course lithium.
Cobalt is particularly bad as its mining products hazardous tailings and slags and nearby communities. Most of the stuff in mined in the Congo by workers (men, women and children ) use hand tools. Not safe and not healthy process (no OSHA there)— but hey, at least its helps those that can afford it drive around in $80,000 Tesla.
Lithium is mined either in Austrilia, Argentina, Bolivia or Chile. The process uses large amounts of ground water (much more than used in I. C. vehicles) depriving local farmers of water for their crops — but hey, they can always work in lithium mining.
Finally, rare earths almost exclusively come from China(in fact China threatened to cut off them when Trump imposed tariffs on China) and besides batteries are used in all kinds of high performance motors, cell phones and products such as commercial and military RADAR, etc. Mining of the stuff requires removal of radioactive contaminants.
The are called Rare earths for a reason and right now EV's (and hence usage of the stuff) are relatively small quantities.
A couple of things to think about:
Wars have been started when countries have been denied access to critical materials.
When I was involved with some of this stuff (10 years ago or so) China produced close to 100% of rare earth elements. Since this stuff is used literally everywhere in the manufacturing economy, this is not a good position for the rest of the world to be in.
Just one major item (I'll leave out military ones although they are unbelievably critical in those products): items using strong magnets. For example the BHmax, or maximum energy product, of a high quality ferrite magnet is 3.5 whereas that of NdFeB is rare earth magnet is 40. This is a major difference.
One more thing: ev's are now around 2% of total car market and prices of critical materials need for their manufacture are rising making both ev non-ev products more expensive. What do you think would happen if I C E vehicles were out and all new vehicles were ev's?
Wars have been started when countries have been denied access to critical materials.
When I was involved with some of this stuff (10 years ago or so) China produced close to 100% of rare earth elements. Since this stuff is used literally everywhere in the manufacturing economy, this is not a good position for the rest of the world to be in.
Just one major item (I'll leave out military ones although they are unbelievably critical in those products): items using strong magnets. For example the BHmax, or maximum energy product, of a high quality ferrite magnet is 3.5 whereas that of NdFeB is rare earth magnet is 40. This is a major difference.
One more thing: ev's are now around 2% of total car market and prices of critical materials need for their manufacture are rising making both ev non-ev products more expensive. What do you think would happen if I C E vehicles were out and all new vehicles were ev's?
I believe Tesla has a mine close to plant in Nevada. They changed formulation for battery to replace cobalt. The batteries and software that controls it are the key to Tesla efficiency. No one else is close. I’m a old time hot rodder and Love working on old cars but new stuff is harder to work on and very expensive. Tesla motors and gearboxes are bulletproof. Car has 1/3 the parts. Mechanics have to hate this but you adapt or die. Gas engines will be in offered in larger trucks for now but when the cyber truck come out that isn’t certain.
Gasoline engine is 20% efficient. EV 80%. I don’t see problem with mining for elements as supply chains are established and interconnected. Tesla will produce car in China for Chinese market and they already make more EVs than anyone else. They will attempt to reverse engineering but this won’t work because Tesla manufacturers their own chips and software.
If you get a replacement battery from Tesla under warranty they will take the old one and refurbish it to use in warranty replacement. If you total it insurance will sell it and auto recyclers will part it out. There is also an off grid market for batteries used for solar storage. This is the case for all vehicles. The old leaf batteries are as much as the used car price because they are getting snatched up by the preppers.
You left out a few things: unless the power plant is located at Niagara Falls or the Grand Coulee Dam, energy conversion of fuel to steam to run the generators is only 35-40% efficient for modern power plants. On top of that the transmission line losses (from the generator to your house or a charging station) can range from of another 4-5%.
The conversion of crude to gasoline is only 85% efficient so that further degrades gasoline engine efficiency. I don't remember the range of efficiencies of pumping crude as it has a very high range depending upon the oil field.
I agree, providing you're not one of the men, women and children mining the stuff in the Congo or South America. I don't know who mines the rare earths in China, but China doesn't have a stellar treatment of some labor groups.
The conversion of crude to gasoline is only 85% efficient so that further degrades gasoline engine efficiency. I don't remember the range of efficiencies of pumping crude as it has a very high range depending upon the oil field.
I agree, providing you're not one of the men, women and children mining the stuff in the Congo or South America. I don't know who mines the rare earths in China, but China doesn't have a stellar treatment of some labor groups.
On a side note
Another one of Musk’s experiments ( SpaceX) crashed and burned today. His comment saying at least it left a crater in the right place shows that even though some call him a genius, I still find him way out there and questioning the trillions of dollars his companies are worth and his expectations of people scurrying about on other planets, and so forth.
Maybe I’m just old fashioned and narrow minded...
Another one of Musk’s experiments ( SpaceX) crashed and burned today. His comment saying at least it left a crater in the right place shows that even though some call him a genius, I still find him way out there and questioning the trillions of dollars his companies are worth and his expectations of people scurrying about on other planets, and so forth.
Maybe I’m just old fashioned and narrow minded...
Good thing you weren't in charge of NASA early rocket launches and the $ they spent.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...544759EECD1ADD576037544&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
Ps. IMHO, I don't know if he is a genius or not but if not he is pretty close.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...544759EECD1ADD576037544&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
Ps. IMHO, I don't know if he is a genius or not but if not he is pretty close.
Back in 2000 or so I had a neighbor who made a lot of $ in buying/selling tech stocks. He actually thought he was brilliant even though his trading was all based on "a gut feel" and constantly kidded me about my mostly conservative investments. In 2004 I drove by his house and I saw a sheriff and a crew moving the contents of his house to the curb. I never saw him, his wife and 3 kids again.
Although this guy literally laughed at me when I told him 80% of my investments were in index funds, I took zero pleasure at seeing the expression on one of his kid's face, who was playing some hoops two houses down with neighbor kids, when he saw all his possessions moved to the curb. Totally pathetic.
Nice job ass hole.
I guess the kid could take solace that at least he spent the night sleeping in his fathers new AUDI.
Nice job ass hole.
I guess the kid could take solace that at least he spent the night sleeping in his fathers new AUDI.